They Don't Respect The Artistry

Jabu_Rule
Jabu_Rule Members Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 2015 in The Reason
I keep seeing all these attacks on what Kanye West said. Recently, many musicians came out from the old school saying Kanye shouldn't speak since he can't or didn't play a instrument. Do they have a point? To me, it seems that this is yet again an attack on hiphop as a whole as if a Rapper or even an R&B artist has to play an instrument for an album or at all? I guess that means people like Micheal Jackson, Patty Label don't matter either? Should a rapper or singer feel some kind of way when people say their vocals and wordplay aren't art or since they can't play a xylophone, they shouldn't speak on artistry? Is a person less creative for bringing other people in the room to create the sound in their head? Does this mean that the imagination of people that can see the big picture yet need others to create it doesn't matter? That's like saying a movie directer ain't ? .
«13

Comments

  • Stew
    Stew Members, Moderators, Writer Posts: 52,234 Regulator
    Michael Jackson is credited in his own liner notes for playing more than 1 instrument.
  • Jabu_Rule
    Jabu_Rule Members Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Stew wrote: »
    Michael Jackson is credited in his own liner notes for playing more than 1 instrument.
    Jackson couldn't read or write music at all. Contrary to received wisdom, he could play instruments a bit - he's credited as playing keyboard, synthesizer, guitar, drums and percussion on 'HIStory' - but none proficiently

    I guess that invalidates his previous work right?
  • Jabu_Rule
    Jabu_Rule Members Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2015
    if you listen to ah song, and can instantly say "that ? is sampled from blah blah"..then it ain't art...it's just music...they aren't the artist, they are using the artists work...

    That makes no sense. They are re-imagining the artist work in their own creations. You saying juicy doesn't matter because Biggy was rapping instead of singing? It's not a cover. I guess reggae artist should stop using the same beat to create different songs. Still, that's an extreme example. Sampling is an art when you can take a small part and expand on it into something equally if not more compelling. If it was easy, everybody would be able to make a quality composition sampling. Actually creativity has more to do with it then ease of use. At the end of the day, the art comes from your mind no matter the tool or inspiration especially when it can affect others. That doesn't necessarily mean it's quality art. Just cause you can draw, that doesn't make you Van Gogh.
  • _Goldie_
    _Goldie_ Members, Moderators, Writer Posts: 30,349 Regulator
    if you listen to ah song, and can instantly say "that ? is sampled from blah blah"..then it ain't art...it's just music...they aren't the artist, they are using the artists work...

    Bruh

    Music is an artform.
  • Stew
    Stew Members, Moderators, Writer Posts: 52,234 Regulator
    FuriousOne wrote: »
    Stew wrote: »
    Michael Jackson is credited in his own liner notes for playing more than 1 instrument.
    Jackson couldn't read or write music at all. Contrary to received wisdom, he could play instruments a bit - he's credited as playing keyboard, synthesizer, guitar, drums and percussion on 'HIStory' - but none proficiently

    I guess that invalidates his previous work right?

    What does one have to do with the other? I thought we were talking about playing instruments?
  • Jabu_Rule
    Jabu_Rule Members Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2015
    Stew wrote: »
    FuriousOne wrote: »
    Stew wrote: »
    Michael Jackson is credited in his own liner notes for playing more than 1 instrument.
    Jackson couldn't read or write music at all. Contrary to received wisdom, he could play instruments a bit - he's credited as playing keyboard, synthesizer, guitar, drums and percussion on 'HIStory' - but none proficiently

    I guess that invalidates his previous work right?

    What does one have to do with the other? I thought we were talking about playing instruments?

    Nah, we talking about the product being judged on weather a person contributed to instrumentation or not. Jackson didn't play on previous works, but that doesn't invalidate the work. People are saying Kanye shouldn't speak because he didn't personally lay down guitars, or Beyonce didn't write her own music, but what does that have to do with the end product being quality?
  • Stew
    Stew Members, Moderators, Writer Posts: 52,234 Regulator
    FuriousOne wrote: »
    I keep seeing all these attacks on what Kanye West said. Recently, many musicians came out from the old school saying Kanye shouldn't speak since he can't play a instrument. Do they have a point? To me, it seems that this is yet again an attack on hiphop as a whole as if a rapper or even an R&B artist has to play and instrument to be relevant. I guess that means people like Micheal Jackson, Patty Label don't matter either? Should a rapper or singer feel some kind of way when people say their vocals and wordplay aren't art or since they can't play a xylophone, they shouldn't speak on artistry? Is a person less creative for bringing other people in the room to create the sound in their head? Does this mean that the imagination of people that can see the big picture yet need others to create it doesn't matter? That's like saying a movie directer ain't ? .

    Ok I guess I misinterpreted the thread then. My bad
  • Jabu_Rule
    Jabu_Rule Members Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2015
    Stew wrote: »
    FuriousOne wrote: »
    I keep seeing all these attacks on what Kanye West said. Recently, many musicians came out from the old school saying Kanye shouldn't speak since he can't play a instrument. Do they have a point? To me, it seems that this is yet again an attack on hiphop as a whole as if a rapper or even an R&B artist has to play and instrument to be relevant. I guess that means people like Micheal Jackson, Patty Label don't matter either? Should a rapper or singer feel some kind of way when people say their vocals and wordplay aren't art or since they can't play a xylophone, they shouldn't speak on artistry? Is a person less creative for bringing other people in the room to create the sound in their head? Does this mean that the imagination of people that can see the big picture yet need others to create it doesn't matter? That's like saying a movie directer ain't ? .

    Ok I guess I misinterpreted the thread then. My bad

    I would think this would apply even to that situation.
    Is a person less creative for bringing other people in the room to create the sound in their head?

    But let me add some words to make you feel better.
  • bck145
    bck145 Members Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kwan Dai wrote: »
    The bottom line here is, Kanye should just ? . Kanye opened the gates for these attacks on his art by making stupid statements about other peoples art and artistry.

    exactly, if you don't attack other art forms, you wouldn't have this type of backlash....a lot of ppl believe though that makeing sounds on a computer isn't nearly as artistic is making the sound with an instrument
  • Kwan Dai
    Kwan Dai Members Posts: 6,929 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bck145 wrote: »
    Kwan Dai wrote: »
    The bottom line here is, Kanye should just ? . Kanye opened the gates for these attacks on his art by making stupid statements about other peoples art and artistry.

    exactly, if you don't attack other art forms, you wouldn't have this type of backlash....a lot of ppl believe though that makeing sounds on a computer isn't nearly as artistic is making the sound with an instrument


    For the Record. I don't believe that. Sampling isn't as easy as people make it out to be. I know first hand from not only watching the process, but making beats with samples myself. Also, if, you listen to the masters like Premo, Dilla, Pete Rock, MadLib, Marley Marl that ? is art. And I dare anyone who attempts to discredit them to do what they do using the equipment they use. I would also bet that many of the producers that started using Drum Machines, samplers etc have picked up some type of instrument along the way. Even if it's just playing a few notes/chords on a keyboard.

  • kzzl
    kzzl Members Posts: 7,548 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2015
    A "producer" without musical education is lacking, that's just a fact. A seasoned musician is well within his right to point out if your ignorance is your bliss.

    But rappers should be given credit for their artistry as song writers, their crafting of words. I doubt your Quincy Jone's, Fela Kuti's, and Walter Beasley's could match your favorite rapper/battle rapper in a freestyle.

    But an "artist" that doesn't rap/sing they own ? and doesn't even compose.... that's what we don't need in the game.
  • LUClEN
    LUClEN Members Posts: 20,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    no...go look at how dj premier does it...he slices samples up and ? and does complex ? with it....so he creates art...

    So mixing isn't an art? Mastering isn't an art?

    There's a lot more going on that just cutting a sample. Percussion sample choices, drum programming, anything added over top the sample... it all takes work and a good ear to make something the masses will enjoy
  • nujerz84
    nujerz84 Members Posts: 15,418 ✭✭✭✭✭
    LUClEN wrote: »
    no...go look at how dj premier does it...he slices samples up and ? and does complex ? with it....so he creates art...

    So mixing isn't an art? Mastering isn't an art?

    There's a lot more going on that just cutting a sample. Percussion sample choices, drum programming, anything added over top the sample... it all takes work and a good ear to make something the masses will enjoy

    Mixing and Mastering is done virtually on all recording of every musical genre, Idk why you would include that.
  • Kwan Dai
    Kwan Dai Members Posts: 6,929 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kzzl wrote: »
    A "producer" without musical education is lacking, that's just a fact. A seasoned musician is well within his right to point out if your ignorance is your bliss.

    But rappers should be given credit for their artistry as song writers, their crafting of words. I doubt your Quincy Jone's, Fela Kuti's, and Walter Beasley's could match your favorite rapper/battle rapper in a freestyle.

    But an "artist" that doesn't rap/sing they own ? and doesn't even compose.... that's what we don't need in the game.

    I wouldn't go that far because, you have good writers that aren't good performers, or perhaps their voice\delivery isn't good. For instance. Dr. Dre. he can take the best MC and still give him pointers on how to make a rhyme sharper. Although, he can rhyme for ? himself.

    I would just say those types shouldn't be claiming ? like they are nice though. Be real about it. You are performers at that point.

  • EyeofAsaru
    EyeofAsaru Members Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Technically speaking

    Programming beats is nowhere near as complex as creating music with actual musical notes and instruments..hip hop is edits,samples and splits looped up into a continuous beat..for a muthafucka to sit there and say a beat machine trumps the skill it takes to play a piano or a guitar is only lying to themselves..that being said,it does take some type of knowledge about musicality to put together a dope beat...

    Hip hop is what you call a derivative art form

    Truth hurts..thats why it(the actual music) isn't truly respected in the eyes of true musicians

    The great emcee on the other hand should always be highly respected because I don't give a ? if a dude rhyming to the the sound of trashcan lids,it takes skill to rap
  • Gee_has_hot_picture
    Gee_has_hot_picture Members Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭
    a lot of butt hurt hip hop fans in heres. this ? Kayne cant play a single legitimate instrument. he uses a beat machine so now hes a real artsist ? of her.

    this monkey opened himself up for attack and its like shooting fish in a barrel. Kanye isnt good at much, look at that muthaphukkas matrix fashion designs, hes not a genius.
  • LUClEN
    LUClEN Members Posts: 20,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    nujerz84 wrote: »
    LUClEN wrote: »
    no...go look at how dj premier does it...he slices samples up and ? and does complex ? with it....so he creates art...

    So mixing isn't an art? Mastering isn't an art?

    There's a lot more going on that just cutting a sample. Percussion sample choices, drum programming, anything added over top the sample... it all takes work and a good ear to make something the masses will enjoy

    Mixing and Mastering is done virtually on all recording of every musical genre, Idk why you would include that.

    So is recording
    A lot of producers do it themselves though, and you can't be any geek off the street
    You gotta be handy with the tools of the trade with actual skills and knowledge


    Your argument sucks btw
    just because something is very prevalent does not change my argument at all
    He basically reduced beat making to cutting samples, but even samplers are mixing their ? , combining samples of different genres and even making their own samples
  • dwade206
    dwade206 Members Posts: 11,558 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ? ain't that deep. Kanye is being attacked because he's acting like a ? ...again.
  • Kwan Dai
    Kwan Dai Members Posts: 6,929 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2015
    EyeofAsaru wrote: »
    Technically speaking

    Programming beats is nowhere near as complex as creating music with actual musical notes and instruments..hip hop is edits,samples and splits looped up into a continuous beat..for a muthafucka to sit there and say a beat machine trumps the skill it takes to play a piano or a guitar is only lying to themselves..that being said,it does take some type of knowledge about musicality to put together a dope beat...

    Hip hop is what you call a derivative art form

    Truth hurts..thats why it(the actual music) isn't truly respected in the eyes of true musicians

    The great emcee on the other hand should always be highly respected because I don't give a ? if a dude rhyming to the the sound of trashcan lids,it takes skill to rap

    But programming beats isn't the entire the process. There is certainly more to it which, has been pointed out in the discussion.

    How do you measure what takes more skill? There are pianist and guitar players that cannot read or compose music. Are we discussing being able to play a full fledged composition or play a few notes, chords or bars?

    The truth is, it's quite arrogant and down right stupid to attempt to degrade a musician because, you don't agree with their choice of instrument to make music.

    The truth is, if you challenged Prince ( who plays multiple instruments) to do what Dilla or MadLib does, he couldn't and vice versa.

  • Jabu_Rule
    Jabu_Rule Members Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2015
    At the end of the day, if a "great" musician made a wack album, and a button pusher made a dope album, which would you choose?
  • LUClEN
    LUClEN Members Posts: 20,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kanye is an idiot for comparing himself to quincy Jones
  • Kwan Dai
    Kwan Dai Members Posts: 6,929 ✭✭✭✭✭
    a lot of butt hurt hip hop fans in heres. this ? Kayne cant play a single legitimate instrument. he uses a beat machine so now hes a real artsist ? of her.

    this monkey opened himself up for attack and its like shooting fish in a barrel. Kanye isnt good at much, look at that muthaphukkas matrix fashion designs, hes not a genius.

    I'm not defending Kanye. I don't rock with Kanye. Never have never will. imo he has been overrated and inflated since day one. But I simple cannot agree that producers who use beat machines or computer software should be considered artists.

    That's like saying graffiti artists aren't artists because, they use spray cans or air brushes instead of paint brushes.

  • nujerz84
    nujerz84 Members Posts: 15,418 ✭✭✭✭✭
    LUClEN wrote: »
    nujerz84 wrote: »
    LUClEN wrote: »
    no...go look at how dj premier does it...he slices samples up and ? and does complex ? with it....so he creates art...

    So mixing isn't an art? Mastering isn't an art?

    There's a lot more going on that just cutting a sample. Percussion sample choices, drum programming, anything added over top the sample... it all takes work and a good ear to make something the masses will enjoy

    Mixing and Mastering is done virtually on all recording of every musical genre, Idk why you would include that.

    So is recording
    A lot of producers do it themselves though, and you can't be any geek off the street
    You gotta be handy with the tools of the trade with actual skills and knowledge


    Your argument sucks btw
    just because something is very prevalent does not change my argument at all
    He basically reduced beat making to cutting samples, but even samplers are mixing their ? , combining samples of different genres and even making their own samples


    This why your argument is flawed beyond logic. You're putting those like Young Guru on the same level of musical talent, skill, musicianship with those whose create music from scratch.

    Having musical talent can help but a few online courses or classes at institute of audio research and one can learn how do mixing and mastering which in itself not an artform or a musical talent.