Belief v. Reason
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alissowack
Members Posts: 1,930 ✭✭✭
My purpose of this is not to suggest how one is better than the other, but to try to bring light to how both can be misrepresented. I could be wrong, but when debates are brought about there is this sense that the opposing parties are trying to prove who is right or wrong. I also see how each side is trying to make the case that by endorsing one, it deprives you of the other. It is to say that those who endorse belief automatically have no sense of reason and, in return, those who endorse reason deprive themselves of belief.
When someone believes in ? , there is the perception by some that think the believers are consumed in the miraculous looking to summon the "magic" associated with it. It is not to say that there aren't those who try...and try foolishly...to make it seem like you don't have to use your brains. And even if something amazing happens, it doesn't give people a reason to discard logic. We still must be able to stand back and observe the happenings of life or we will find ourselves "wow-ing" everything of existence. However, it is only to say that not all believers are disregarding the logic books. It just might be because of belief, they can appreciate reason.
There is also the impression that the thinkers of the world have no regards for belief; that they are soulless, heartless without a sense for morals. There is a certain "respect" that thinkers have for the rules and laws of the world especially if it has been proven to be a benefit. There is a certain devotion thinkers have that say that because of logic, they can give themselves to what they know. I believe however that thinkers can't discredit the "wonder" associated with reason. Even if it can be explained, I think it's cool to finally know the "know-how" of the things of life; that it is a "blessing" to obtain knowledge.
I believe we should have both belief and reason; that they are not sworn enemies in debates. Both are needed to make debates even worth participating in. What's a bunch of facts if there isn't any passion to defend it and what's belief if it doesn't care about what we think about it.
When someone believes in ? , there is the perception by some that think the believers are consumed in the miraculous looking to summon the "magic" associated with it. It is not to say that there aren't those who try...and try foolishly...to make it seem like you don't have to use your brains. And even if something amazing happens, it doesn't give people a reason to discard logic. We still must be able to stand back and observe the happenings of life or we will find ourselves "wow-ing" everything of existence. However, it is only to say that not all believers are disregarding the logic books. It just might be because of belief, they can appreciate reason.
There is also the impression that the thinkers of the world have no regards for belief; that they are soulless, heartless without a sense for morals. There is a certain "respect" that thinkers have for the rules and laws of the world especially if it has been proven to be a benefit. There is a certain devotion thinkers have that say that because of logic, they can give themselves to what they know. I believe however that thinkers can't discredit the "wonder" associated with reason. Even if it can be explained, I think it's cool to finally know the "know-how" of the things of life; that it is a "blessing" to obtain knowledge.
I believe we should have both belief and reason; that they are not sworn enemies in debates. Both are needed to make debates even worth participating in. What's a bunch of facts if there isn't any passion to defend it and what's belief if it doesn't care about what we think about it.
Comments
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The problem is with belief there tends to be a strong lack of reason used. If someone makes a claim that a caring loving omnipotent being resides in another dimension I see a lack of reasoning behind that claim by looking at the world around us.
When people make a claim that a caring loving perfect omnipotent being created a perfect world and universe I see a lack of reasoning when one can easily see that our world and our universe is not perfect and is quite far from it.
To me belief is what you have because you lack logic and reason, had their been good logic and reason with a claim that claim wouldn't be a belief but a strong theory. Belief is merely a human concept created to deal with problems. Can you name many beliefs that aren't done so with the hope of a better future? The belief the world will one day be perfect is a belief with zero reason to suggest it will, the belief in ? is the hope of a perfect afterlife with no reason to believe it will, the belief that you will beat cancer has no reasoning behind it alone. To me I can't think of a belief in which reason can be used with it. -
For me reason is that which allows you to deduce and keep deducing until you have come to a conclusion that cannot be deduced any further. Belief is more like betting, {something either is or isn't, but your betting on one or the other and stick to your bet}. There is no deduction involved really, maybe to some degree.
Ie: A person who is know by past actions to steal things habitually has come to my home, reason would tell me they are likely to steal something from me too and not let them in. Belief says, they may or may not, and I could make the bet they won't and let them in. Reason in this case immediately places judgment on the person whereas belief allows some faith in them.
Reason and belief imo loses and wins in some cases and this might be where good discernment comes in. -
alissowack wrote: »When someone believes in ? , there is the perception by some that think the believers are consumed in the miraculous looking to summon the "magic" associated with it.
belief in ? = belief in the "magic" associated with it....or as yall would say "miracles" -
I do not understand the separation of belief and reason. Belief is the thought that an idea or concept is true. I believe that Green Bay will win the Super Bowl. This is a fairly sound belief since Green Bay is favored to win.
If green Bay does win then my belief transitions to 'I believe Green Bay won the super in 2011'. This is still a belief as it is a concept I hold to be true but now it has extra weight. Since I watch the events unfold I am justified in holding this belief to be true. Beliefs that are justified this way are called knowledge. In any case after watching the 2011 superbowl I will have knowledge of who won the game.
Belief is foundational to reasoning since we can not start to reason until we start to believe.
In my opinion Alissowack is not writing about 'belief' but rather faith. Faith is a belief that is unsupported by evidence. Often a person will try to support their faith by applying what they think is evidence but in all cases I have seen one must first agree to the article of faith to accept the evidence. -
If green Bay does win then my belief transitions to 'I believe Green Bay won the super in 2011'. This is still a belief as it is a concept I hold to be true but now it has extra weight. Since I watch the events unfold I am justified in holding this belief to be true. Beliefs that are justified this way are called knowledge. In any case after watching the 2011 superbowl I will have knowledge of who won the game.
Wouldn't this imply some uncertainty to the outcome of the GB game? If you believe that would imply you are not certain. If you KNOW that something has happened, or you witnessed the outcome would it still be necessary to have "believe" in the sentence? Wouldn't it just be, "Green Bay won the Super Bowl." People usually say, I believe such and such to be the case, because they are not 100% sure of what they are saying. Basically, would there be a reason to believe if you know? -
oliverlang wrote: »Wouldn't this imply some uncertainty to the outcome of the GB game? If you believe that would imply you are not certain. If you KNOW that something has happened, or you witnessed the outcome would it still be necessary to have "believe" in the sentence? Wouldn't it just be, "Green Bay won the Super Bowl." People usually say, I believe such and such to be the case, because they are not 100% sure of what they are saying.
We naturally assign less certainty to 'I believe' than 'I know' this is how we use the words in everyday language. In fact this often appear in atheist/theist debates. Someone says "I believe ? exists" and someone else replies "Well I know he doesn't". However from a philosophical standpoint regarding belief there is no difference between saying "I believe spiders are creepy" and "Spiders are creepy". Both express an idea I hold to be true. We will often convey the strength of our belief in the statement expressing them. For example 'I think spiders are creepy' and "Spiders are kinda creepy" and "Spiders are the creepiest thing on earth" all convey a different level of certainty or intensity of belief. -
We naturally assign less certainty to 'I believe' than 'I know' this is how we use the words in everyday language. In fact this often appear in atheist/theist debates. Someone says "I believe ? exists" and someone else replies "Well I know he doesn't". However from a philosophical standpoint regarding belief there is no difference between saying "I believe spiders are creepy" and "Spiders are creepy". Both express an idea I hold to be true. We will often convey the strength of our belief in the statement expressing them. For example 'I think spiders are creepy' and "Spiders are kinda creepy" and "Spiders are the creepiest thing on earth" all convey a different level of certainty or intensity of belief.
I see...but, if someone says, "Spiders are creepy," wouldn't that be more of an opinion than a fact? After all, it is a subjective statement because spiders aren't creepy to everyone. I don't think you can ever associate certainty to subjective statements because it's always based on that person's opinion on spiders since there is no fact that can confirm spiders are creepy. They can say, "I believe spiders are creepy," or, "Spiders are creepy" because we already understand that is their opinion about spiders and saying "I believe" would be unnecessary because it's already established that it's your belief about spiders since you are the one saying it.
I know it's all semantics, lol...but I still think if you say you believe it, then you don't know it. -
oliverlang wrote: »I see...but, if someone says, "Spiders are creepy," wouldn't that be more of an opinion than a fact? After all, it is a subjective statement because spiders aren't creepy to everyone. I don't think you can ever associate certainty to subjective statements because it's always based on that person's opinion on spiders since there is no fact that can confirm spiders are creepy. They can say, "I believe spiders are creepy," or, "Spiders are creepy" because we already understand that is their opinion about spiders and saying "I believe" would be unnecessary because it's already established that it's your belief about spiders since you are the one saying it.
I know it's all semantics, lol...but I still think if you say you believe it, then you don't know it.
From a language and communicating standpoint I agree that 'believe' and 'know' convey different things. Not only a certainty but also a justification in the idea that is considered true. I know the Patriots went undefeated one season only to lose the Superbowl. I believe it occurred 2 years ago but I know it occurred in the last 5 years. Anyone reading that sentence can easily follow my state of mind on each of the proposition presented.
Language is complex and nuanced though. I could also move from 'know' to 'believe' to soften my language. I have a 80 years old aunt that is very religious. When she asked me about my views on evolution I said something like 'I believe the theory of evolution best matches the evidence'. I did not want to step on her beliefs that ran counter to that so I soften my language. I am certainly justified in accepting evolution given its evidence as knowledge but I had an emotional need to consider my aunts feelings.
This leads to the single thing I fear the most from religion and the religious mind. The willingness to disregard knowledge for a belief held with certainty based on faith. -
This leads to the single thing I fear the most from religion and the religious mind. The willingness to disregard knowledge for a belief held with certainty based on faith.
well said...It's also a concern of mine. -
belief in ? = belief in the "magic" associated with it....or as yall would say "miracles"
I don't think we understand the shallowness of miracles. If the only reason someone believes in ? is because ? can perform tricks on demand, then it's possible that the believer could care less about ? ; that ? is only summoned out of convenience. -
alissowack wrote: »I don't think we understand the shallowness of miracles. If the only reason someone believes in ? is because ? can perform tricks on demand, then it's possible that the believer could care less about ? ; that ? is only summoned out of convenience.
Miracles are not miracles they are slim probabilities. I don't understand how one christian out of 200 surviving cancer or one person living and 359 dying in a plane crash are miracles.
What is a miracle? -
ThaChozenWun wrote: »Miracles are not miracles they are slim probabilities. I don't understand how one christian out of 200 surviving cancer or one person living and 359 dying in a plane crash are miracles.
What is a miracle?
Even if that is what you want to call it, then if the only reason why people believe in ? is for the possibility of being cured from cancer or saved from a plane crash, then it's possible to use ? only for convenience. We could care less. -
alissowack wrote: »I don't think we understand the shallowness of miracles. If the only reason someone believes in ? is because ? can perform tricks on demand, then it's possible that the believer could care less about ? ; that ? is only summoned out of convenience.
I agree... people sin all day then call on ? when they need help
Most Christians don't give a fucc about ? and DO NOT truly love ? ....... they are afraid of being punished if they don't worship him
Christians talk about Hell more than the actual Bible text does
If your followers only worship you out of fear of eternal damnation (punishment) you're not a ? ... youre a DICTATOR
Its hard for me not to believe that the idea of ? was created from the minds of very creative men with colorful imaginations
? has all the traits of an extremely insecure husband/father
then they give a thousand reasons why ? acts that way
and just like any unhealthy relationship alot of people are moving on with their lives, forgeting about ? and they are starting to love and believe in themselves
people need to get some space between them and ? for awhile... to see what else life has to offer.... its not like ? is goin anywhere lol
How bout this, if you truly feel you love ? ... let him go for a while.... if its meant to be he will come bacc to you eventually lol -
ThaChozenWun wrote: »What is a miracle?
In this day and age? An expression of love. -
Had religion not indoctrinated so many people into thinking that their natural feelings and thoughts were somehow related to a higher power, we would find that some people tend to be analytical and others tend to be intuitive.
Analytical people tend to want concrete evidence and logical conclusions in order to accept an idea, and think that gut feelings mean nothing without verifiable information to back it up.
Intuitive people are more willing to accept what they feel and sense to be the truth and feel that logic and evidence can often get in the way of our ability to perceive things through our own perspective.
In other words, intuitive people need to grow the ? up. Their thought process is that of a young child's. Yeah, I guess in a way that's more "fun" but it would also be nice if you actually knew things instead of just referring to your uninformed gut feelings as that which you "know". -
wanna see me shut you down? are you ready? okay. here goes.
“The only real valuable thing is intuition.”
"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant.
We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."
- Albert Einstein
Nah, that don't shut down ? . The lame tactic of posting a respected person's opinion on a matter as if it ends the matter is pretty weak.
So Einstein said something nice about intuition. Doesn't changed the fact that he used reason and logic when doing the things that still make him famous all these years later. -
woohoo quote-mining, the internet's favorite passtime
einstein also said "religion is for big dumb babies and there is no personal ? like the one you idiots are describing at all" -
"The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once ? (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance... logic can be happily tossed out the window." — Stephen King
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alan alda, ? ?
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Young Ice, when I said intuitive thinkers are childish, I was referring to people who rely on their intuition to explain what they don't understand and then consider the matter settled. Obviously, it's not childish to have intuitive feelings about certain things/situations. It happens involuntarily, and it's fine as long as you realize that your moment of intuition has not made you any more informed or educated about the situation at hand. The problem is the people who think their intuition has itself proven something ("I know ? exists because I've felt his presence).
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i googled alan alda real quick because i thought maybe my memory was failing me and Alan Alda was a physicist and not the star of MASH
but nope, you quotemined the star of MASH -
foh with that intuition ?
people had intuitions that the universe revolved around the earth
people had intuitions that the earth was flat and if you go too far youll fall off
people had intuitions about praying to inanimate objects
my point is people are dumb as ? if you leave em to intuition
if you cant prove it with science its probably not true -
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Do you have any evidence of this claim, or do you just use intuition to determine that intuition most often sends you in the right direction?Intuition is often times very trustworthy though. I know it in no way proves or disproves anything, but it more often that not pushes people into the right direction.
there is a difference between intuition and following blindly. -
^ tree falls in the woods post
So what are you saying, my post fell on deaf ears?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cYZGaDF6xI