How will ? Punish the Wicked???
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wink_da_god
Members Posts: 169
couple interesting thoughts have popped up in a related thread regarding the topics of christianity/?
is the soul everlasting/immortal?
will ? punish the wicked?
if so, how will he accomplish this?
all are welcome 2 join the discussion....
is the soul everlasting/immortal?
will ? punish the wicked?
if so, how will he accomplish this?
all are welcome 2 join the discussion....
Comments
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1. In your reference to Gehenna, I believe Jesus Christ used that illustration to speak to the hearts and minds of the people He was talking to when He gave that illustration. In the Jewish mind, they would immediately understand what Jesus Christ was talking about when He was comparing Gehenna to the final destination of the wicked. Just like you gave in your prior description, it was a place of continual burning. It was a place where the fire was never quenched and the worms (maggots) never died. So in the Jewish mind this place was a place to be feared and i'm sure that the master teacher put the fear of ? in many of their hearts, which of course He still does today.
2. Speaking of eternal destruction. ? created man to live forever. That's why He breathed the breath of life into us and we all became living souls. Before Adam was given a soul, he was just a corpse. He had no life in him, because ? hadn't imparted life into Him. But when ? gave Him life, that life was the eternal soul.
"And the LORD ? formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7
This soul came from the eternal and infinite ? . That is why the soul will last forever in 1 of 2 places. For the righteous the soul will be made perfect by the righteousness of Christ, and thus be allowed to spend eternity with Him in His kingdom. But for the wicked, the soul will have the wrath of ? abiding on him/her forever.
Numerous scriptures speak about how the punishment for the wicked will be everlasting in nature. One such is the passage of scripture in Matthew 25 which speaks about the separation of the sheeps from the goats. In Matthew 25:46 ? says to the goats on His left hand, that they must depart from His presence into everlasting fire. So my question for you is why would ? prepare a place of everlasting fire if the occupants of this place where not going to be everlasting partakers of this horrible place? -
You punish yourself.
Chicka.chick chaicka
There it is....... -
well see partna this is where it gets thick...
i dont believe jesus was a messenger of fear. i believe that his teachings where all tempered with love and justice. the sanhedrin, pharisees and jewish high priest of his day where preaching the message of fear to illicit power and monetary gain from the nation of israel (? 's chosen ppl pre-christ). again and i think we might have 2 agree to disagree on this one i think the purpose of jesus using gehenna as a reference was to illicit complete destruction because as of right now gehenna is no longer used for the purpose it once was, it has ceased to exist. if it was used as a symbol of everlasting destruction i would think that it itself would never be destroyed to provide a testiment to ? 's will and purpose (i could be wrong tho). but like i stated in the previous thread, my biggest hang up is 1 john 4:8. ? is love. we are all ? 's children. and i have a daughter. if she never listened to a word i told her and lived life completely contradictory to what i believe to be right i still would not desire for her to suffer and i am an imperfect man with a corrupt sense of justice. i can only imagine ? being perfect and the actual definition of love an justice to share a similar sentiment but to an infinitely higher degree because as 2 peter 3:9 states he does not desire to destroy anyone. thats y i can agree that he will destroy the wicked out of necessity but i can not bring myself to believe that he would impart torment to his own creation. doesnt seem just.
2.) i agree that the soul was created to be infinite and man was created to be perfect but that was under the guidance, protection, and rulership of ? . at this point we are not under the protection of ? . satan is the ruler of this world as jesus confirmed during his time n the wilderness when satan offered jesus the vast kingdoms of the earth if jesus would do an act of worship to him. satan said himself that the things he offered jesus were given him and logically he wouldnt be able to give anything he himself did not possess. so i basically in a nutshell i believe that the original purpose of mankind will be realized post armageddon and mankind will be restored to perfection on the earth without sin sickness or death whereas the angels and certain humans will be raised to heaven to rule with jesus as pointed out in revelation (little flock of 144k and the great crowd respectively) -
You punish yourself.
Chicka.chick chaicka
There it is.......
damn....idk if u meant 4 this post 2 be as powerful as it actually is -
well see partna this is where it gets thick...
i dont believe jesus was a messenger of fear. i believe that his teachings where all tempered with love and justice. the sanhedrin, pharisees and jewish high priest of his day where preaching the message of fear to illicit power and monetary gain from the nation of israel (? 's chosen ppl pre-christ). again and i think we might have 2 agree to disagree on this one i think the purpose of jesus using gehenna as a reference was to illicit complete destruction because as of right now gehenna is no longer used for the purpose it once was, it has ceased to exist. if it was used as a symbol of everlasting destruction i would think that it itself would never be destroyed to provide a testiment to ? 's will and purpose (i could be wrong tho). but like i stated in the previous thread, my biggest hang up is 1 john 4:8. ? is love. we are all ? 's children. and i have a daughter. if she never listened to a word i told her and lived life completely contradictory to what i believe to be right i still would not desire for her to suffer and i am an imperfect man with a corrupt sense of justice. i can only imagine ? being perfect and the actual definition of love an justice to share a similar sentiment but to an infinitely higher degree because as 2 peter 3:9 states he does not desire to destroy anyone. thats y i can agree that he will destroy the wicked out of necessity but i can not bring myself to believe that he would impart torment to his own creation. doesnt seem just.
2.) i agree that the soul was created to be infinite and man was created to be perfect but that was under the guidance, protection, and rulership of ? . at this point we are not under the protection of ? . satan is the ruler of this world as jesus confirmed during his time n the wilderness when satan offered jesus the vast kingdoms of the earth if jesus would do an act of worship to him. satan said himself that the things he offered jesus were given him and logically he wouldnt be able to give anything he himself did not possess. so i basically in a nutshell i believe that the original purpose of mankind will be realized post armageddon and mankind will be restored to perfection on the earth without sin sickness or death whereas the angels and certain humans will be raised to heaven to rule with jesus as pointed out in revelation (little flock of 144k and the great crowd respectively)
1 In your first point you said a key word at the end, "doesnt seem just." Which pretty much sums up what you also stated earlier, our view of justice is limited by our sinful, rebellious nature. While we as humans may not think it is just for ? to punish the wicked forever, ? on the other hand does find it just to punish the wicked forever. The big hang up with all this is, is not that we may have to agree to disagree but that we both do not understand the absolute holiness of ? . Yes ? is love, but wrapped up in that love are all His other traits. I mean why did ? send His only begotten Son to die for sinners? He's ? after all. He can do anything. But yet He chose the most inconceivable thing to do, which was to taste death, so that He could save those who trust in Him.
So let me put it to you like this. I also have a daughter just like you. Now if you were to give up your daughter and sacrifice her for the sins of the world, would you let me into your house if I rejected the sacrifice of your daughter? I know I wouldn't and neither will ? .
So these people who refuse to accept the love of ? must accept the wrath of ? . You can't have the sweet without the bitter. Nor can you have the bitter without the sweet. If ? is love, He must be just in His punishments. If the righteous are given eternal life than the wicked must suffer eternal death. There's no other way to put it. If ? is holy, He must punish those who trampled on the precious blood of Christ with everlasting punishment.
The doctrine of hell is a very touchy subject because people don't understand how ? can punish people forever. I also don't totally understand it, but I accept it by faith because His word clearly teaches it.
2. Well if your walking under the guidance, protection, and rulership of ? through faith in His Son, Jesus Christ, you are under the protection of ? . Why? Because believers are not of this world. Our citizenship is in heaven, not on earth. Yes, the rulership of this world is in the hands of satan, but Jesus Christ crushed the head of the serpent at the cross of Calvary. Jesus Christ death, burial, and resurrection sealed the fate of the serpent forever.
And ? said that He would never leave those that are His, nor forsake those that are His. It is only by the grace and mercy of ? that He does protect those that are His. Without Gods protection the enemy would swallow us up. You've read the account of Job. The enemy is the accuser of all of us. He accuses us before the throne of ? day and night, seeking an occasion to destroy us. But ? shields those that are His and He will not allow satan to harm us. Everything that the serpent does is done under the sovereignty of ? . ? is the one who is in control of all things. Satan has no power unless ? gives him power. That's it, that's all.
? is the mover and shaker in this universe and in heaven. That's why we as believers run to Him for all of our needs. And the words of the scripture come to mean a whole lot more when we do just that. "? is our refuge and strength, always ready to help in times of trouble." (Psalm 46:1) If ? wasn't our refuge we would be causalities of war my friend. Because the ? of this world is like a roaring lion, walking to and fro through out the earth, seeking whom he may devour. But thank ? Al-Mighty that we are in His hands. We are of His seed and not the serpent. We are the wheat my friend and praise ? for His abundant grace, love, and mercy which He has bestowed upon all those who trust in Him. Hallelujah! -
DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »1 In your first point you said a key word at the end, "doesnt seem just." Which pretty much sums up what you also stated earlier, our view of justice is limited by our sinful, rebellious nature. While we as humans may not think it is just for ? to punish the wicked forever, ? on the other hand does find it just to punish the wicked forever. The big hang up with all this is, is not that we may have to agree to disagree but that we both do not understand the absolute holiness of ? . Yes ? is love, but wrapped up in that love are all His other traits. I mean why did ? send His only begotten Son to die for sinners? He's ? after all. He can do anything. But yet He chose the most inconceivable thing to do, which was to taste death, so that He could save those who trust in Him.
So let me put it to you like this. I also have a daughter just like you. Now if you were to give up your daughter and sacrifice her for the sins of the world, would you let me into your house if I rejected the sacrifice of your daughter? I know I wouldn't and neither will ? .
So these people who refuse to accept the love of ? must accept the wrath of ? . You can't have the sweet without the bitter. Nor can you have the bitter without the sweet. If ? is love, He must be just in His punishments. If the righteous are given eternal life than the wicked must suffer eternal death. There's no other way to put it. If ? is holy, He must punish those who trampled on the precious blood of Christ with everlasting punishment.
The doctrine of hell is a very touchy subject because people don't understand how ? can punish people forever. I also don't totally understand it, but I accept it by faith because His word clearly teaches it.
2. Well if your walking under the guidance, protection, and rulership of ? through faith in His Son, Jesus Christ, you are under the protection of ? . Why? Because believers are not of this world. Our citizenship is in heaven, not on earth. Yes, the rulership of this world is in the hands of satan, but Jesus Christ crushed the head of the serpent at the cross of Calvary. Jesus Christ death, burial, and resurrection sealed the fate of the serpent forever.
And ? said that He would never leave those that are His, nor forsake those that are His. It is only by the grace and mercy of ? that He does protect those that are His. Without Gods protection the enemy would swallow us up. You've read the account of Job. The enemy is the accuser of all of us. He accuses us before the throne of ? day and night, seeking an occasion to destroy us. But ? shields those that are His and He will not allow satan to harm us. Everything that the serpent does is done under the sovereignty of ? . ? is the one who is in control of all things. Satan has no power unless ? gives him power. That's it, that's all.
? is the mover and shaker in this universe and in heaven. That's why we as believers run to Him for all of our needs. And the words of the scripture come to mean a whole lot more when we do just that. "? is our refuge and strength, always ready to help in times of trouble." (Psalm 46:1) If ? wasn't our refuge we would be causalities of war my friend. Because the ? of this world is like a roaring lion, walking to and fro through out the earth, seeking whom he may devour. But thank ? Al-Mighty that we are in His hands. We are of His seed and not the serpent. We are the wheat my friend and praise ? for His abundant grace, love, and mercy which He has bestowed upon all those who trust in Him. Hallelujah!
1.) ? is reasonable and makes himself able to be understood, faith is not required in the aspect of understanding ? and his motives it is all given in scripture to be interpreted. faith comes into play when anticipating something that has not occured yet like the coming destruction of the current wickedness. but even still it is only a small amount once you read and see how ? has previously fortold and executed judgements upon wicked ppl. i simply believe that jesus being ? 's closet companion (spending who knows how long with ? before other angels and the earth were created in his spiritual form as michael) mirrored ? in a way that all humans should strive to attain. because like scriptures say jesus mirrored his father perfectly while on earth. therefore his stances and course of conduct on earth give insight into ? himself which is why i believe that it doesnt matter what ppl do qwhile on earth they will not be tormented. destroyed never to return yes, afflicted forever no. jesus cured and sought to teach ppl while on earth and even when he was ridiculed tortured and killed himself! he did not return evil for evil. his last night on earth and even years prior he KNEW his fate was to die for mankind. he came to earth knowing his purpose was to die for mankind which gives evidence of not only his love for mankind but also ? 's. jesus could have had angels come down and ? his oppressors but would that have accomplished ? 's purpose? is that what ? wanted? evidently not. ? was hurt by the rejection of his son and equally as hurt by the oppression of those who serve him currently. he knows that sin predisposes us all to act wickedly, its the natural thing to do because we were born into sin. how can he fault an individual for doing something that is natural. it is natural in this world to reject what is right. jesus struggled with it and he was perfect. all the disciples and folks who ? favored like job and countless others sinned and struggled with doing what ? says is right and they r the best of the best. it is only through jesus' sacrifice that provides the way out and absolves us of that sinful burden should we repent to him through jesus. however if we dont i just dont see ? making folks suffer because they live life naturally. seems unjust to me is all im saying.
2.) AGREED MY BROTHER!! keep up the fine fight bro your faith is an inspiration -
also scriptures like psalms 146:6 where it speaks of the spirit going out (death) and a man's thoughts expiring suggest that there is no after life as is made popular by a lot of false teaching like dante's inferno and even false religion made prevalent today by the egyptians assyrians medo-persians of long ago. ecclesiastes 9:5 says the dead are conscious of nothing at all. they r simply waiting for ? 's day of judgement. jesus resurrected a number of folks from death including his best friend lazarus. they never spoke of pearly gates or hell fire not a one. they were merely asleep in death as spoken by jesus himself at john 11:11-14 (about lazarus), 1 thessalonians 4:13, and psalms 13:3 where death is likened to falling asleep
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1.) ? is reasonable and makes himself able to be understood, faith is not required in the aspect of understanding ? and his motives it is all given in scripture to be interpreted. faith comes into play when anticipating something that has not occured yet like the coming destruction of the current wickedness. but even still it is only a small amount once you read and see how ? has previously fortold and executed judgements upon wicked ppl. i simply believe that jesus being ? 's closet companion (spending who knows how long with ? before other angels and the earth were created in his spiritual form as michael) mirrored ? in a way that all humans should strive to attain. because like scriptures say jesus mirrored his father perfectly while on earth. therefore his stances and course of conduct on earth give insight into ? himself which is why i believe that it doesnt matter what ppl do qwhile on earth they will not be tormented. destroyed never to return yes, afflicted forever no. jesus cured and sought to teach ppl while on earth and even when he was ridiculed tortured and killed himself! he did not return evil for evil. his last night on earth and even years prior he KNEW his fate was to die for mankind. he came to earth knowing his purpose was to die for mankind which gives evidence of not only his love for mankind but also ? 's. jesus could have had angels come down and ? his oppressors but would that have accomplished ? 's purpose? is that what ? wanted? evidently not. ? was hurt by the rejection of his son and equally as hurt by the oppression of those who serve him currently. he knows that sin predisposes us all to act wickedly, its the natural thing to do because we were born into sin. how can he fault an individual for doing something that is natural. it is natural in this world to reject what is right. jesus struggled with it and he was perfect. all the disciples and folks who ? favored like job and countless others sinned and struggled with doing what ? says is right and they r the best of the best. it is only through jesus' sacrifice that provides the way out and absolves us of that sinful burden should we repent to him through jesus. however if we dont i just dont see ? making folks suffer because they live life naturally. seems unjust to me is all im saying.
2.) AGREED MY BROTHER!! keep up the fine fight bro your faith is an inspiration
My brother wink, i don't mean to deviate from the discussion but something that you said caught my eye. Can you tell me how you reconcile the bolded with Hebrews 1 and Colossians 1:15-20?
1? , who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of ? worship him.
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O ? , is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore ? , even thy ? , hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" Hebrew 1:1-14
"15Who is the image of the invisible ? , the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." Colossians 1:15-20 -
also scriptures like psalms 146:6 where it speaks of the spirit going out (death) and a man's thoughts expiring suggest that there is no after life as is made popular by a lot of false teaching like dante's inferno and even false religion made prevalent today by the egyptians assyrians medo-persians of long ago. ecclesiastes 9:5 says the dead are conscious of nothing at all. they r simply waiting for ? 's day of judgement. jesus resurrected a number of folks from death including his best friend lazarus. they never spoke of pearly gates or hell fire not a one. they were merely asleep in death as spoken by jesus himself at john 11:11-14 (about lazarus), 1 thessalonians 4:13, and psalms 13:3 where death is likened to falling asleep
Interesting. How do you reconcile the rich man and lazarus though?
"19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's ? : the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his ? . 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:19-31 -
DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »My brother wink, i don't mean to deviate from the discussion but something that you said caught my eye. Can you tell me how you reconcile the bolded with Hebrews 1 and Colossians 1:15-20?
1? , who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of ? worship him.
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O ? , is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore ? , even thy ? , hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" Hebrew 1:1-14
"15Who is the image of the invisible ? , the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." Colossians 1:15-20
not sure what u mean but are u pointing to my choice of words (companion)?
because i understand jesus is ? 's first born creation and all things originate with ? and were given to jesus.
if that wasnt your intent please inform -
not sure what u mean but are u pointing to my choice of words (companion)?
because i understand jesus is ? 's first born creation and all things originate with ? and were given to jesus.
if that wasnt your intent please inform
Do you believe that prior to Jesus Christ revealing Himself in human flesh, that He has always existed in spirit form with the Father and the Holy Spirit?
I ask that because Colossians 1:16-17 says that By Jesus Christ all things were created, that are in heaven, that are in earth, visible and invisible, and by Him all things consists because He was before all things and by Him all things consist.
And because scripture confirms scripture Genesis 1:1 says that "In the beginning ? created the heaven and the earth."
So my ultimate question is do you believe that Jesus Christ is ? ? -
DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »Interesting. How do you reconcile the rich man and lazarus though?
"19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's ? : the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his ? . 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:19-31
if u read luke 16-14-16 u can see jesus was speaking to the pharisees and if u read all of chapter 16 u can see he was using an illustration and not speaking literally...basically speaking imo JESUS is relating an illustration about a rich man and a poor beggar (Lazarus). The rich man represents the religious leaders who are favored with spiritual privileges and opportunities, and Lazarus pictures the common people who hunger for spiritual nourishment. Jesus continues his story, describing a dramatic change in the men’s circumstances.
the rich man and symbolize classes of people, logically their deaths are also symbolic. Jesus was pointing to a change in circumstances by saying that ‘the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptizer, but from then on the kingdom of ? is being declared.’ Hence, it is with the preaching of John and Jesus Christ that both the rich man*and Lazarus die to their former circumstances, or condition.
Those of the humble, repentant Lazarus class die to their former spiritually deprived condition and come into a position of divine favor. Whereas they had earlier looked to the religious leaders for what little dropped from the spiritual table, now the Scriptural truths imparted by Jesus are filling their needs. They are thus brought into the ? , or favored position, of the Greater Abraham, ? .
On the other hand, those who make up the rich-man class come under divine disfavor because of persistently refusing to accept the Kingdom message taught by Jesus. They thereby die to their former position of seeming favor. In fact, they are spoken of as being in figurative torment. Listen as the rich man speaks:
“Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.” ? ’s fiery judgment messages proclaimed by Jesus’ disciples are what torment individuals of the rich-man class. They wanted the disciples to let up on declaring these messages, thus providing them some measure of relief from their torments as evident by the turning of the jewish high priestly class on jesus and what ultimately resulted in his earthly death -
DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »Do you believe that prior to Jesus Christ revealing Himself in human flesh, that He has always existed in spirit form with the Father and the Holy Spirit?
I ask that because Colossians 1:16-17 says that By Jesus Christ all things were created, that are in heaven, that are in earth, visible and invisible, and by Him all things consists because He was before all things and by Him all things consist.
And because scripture confirms scripture Genesis 1:1 says that "In the beginning ? created the heaven and the earth."
So my ultimate question is do you believe that Jesus Christ is ? ?
oh no sir. i believe that jesus was created first and through all things ? used him to create everything else based off of job 38:7. the stars where created and the angels cheered and applauded. 1 corinthians 1 15-17 says for in him all things were created and all things were created for and through him. but he is a seperate being from ? -
4got to add that the quote "in the beginning" is subjective. the bible is written for humans and for humans that was our beginning however as scripture later explains and as i said in my previous post that was not the 'true' beginning of ALL things.oh no sir. i believe that jesus was created first and through all things ? used him to create everything else based off of job 38:7. the stars where created and the angels cheered and applauded. 1 corinthians 1 15-17 says for in him all things were created and all things were created for and through him. but he is a seperate being from ? -
if u read luke 16-14-16 u can see jesus was speaking to the pharisees and if u read all of chapter 16 u can see he was using an illustration and not speaking literally...basically speaking imo JESUS is relating an illustration about a rich man and a poor beggar (Lazarus). The rich man represents the religious leaders who are favored with spiritual privileges and opportunities, and Lazarus pictures the common people who hunger for spiritual nourishment. Jesus continues his story, describing a dramatic change in the men’s circumstances.
the rich man and symbolize classes of people, logically their deaths are also symbolic. Jesus was pointing to a change in circumstances by saying that ‘the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptizer, but from then on the kingdom of ? is being declared.’ Hence, it is with the preaching of John and Jesus Christ that both the rich man*and Lazarus die to their former circumstances, or condition.
Those of the humble, repentant Lazarus class die to their former spiritually deprived condition and come into a position of divine favor. Whereas they had earlier looked to the religious leaders for what little dropped from the spiritual table, now the Scriptural truths imparted by Jesus are filling their needs. They are thus brought into the ? , or favored position, of the Greater Abraham, ? .
On the other hand, those who make up the rich-man class come under divine disfavor because of persistently refusing to accept the Kingdom message taught by Jesus. They thereby die to their former position of seeming favor. In fact, they are spoken of as being in figurative torment. Listen as the rich man speaks:
“Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.” ? ’s fiery judgment messages proclaimed by Jesus’ disciples are what torment individuals of the rich-man class. They wanted the disciples to let up on declaring these messages, thus providing them some measure of relief from their torments as evident by the turning of the jewish high priestly class on jesus and what ultimately resulted in his earthly death
I think we are treading on very dangerous ground when we start to symbolize everything that Jesus is talking about. I don't get why Jesus would specifically mention a place where the dead went if it were not true. What would be the point of the illustration? Jesus never lied, so why would he be lying about a place where the dead went upon their death? Abraham was in this place and he had died 1,000's of years prior to this event. Why would Jesus specifally tell us that Abraham was in this place, all though on the other side of the great gulf that was fixed, and that he was speaking to the rich man that had died? Also why would Jesus say that angels carried lazarus into the paradise side of Abraham's ? ? Why would Jesus give us these details if they were just meant to be symbolic representations? -
oh no sir. i believe that jesus was created first and through all things ? used him to create everything else based off of job 38:7. the stars where created and the angels cheered and applauded. 1 corinthians 1 15-17 says for in him all things were created and all things were created for and through him. but he is a seperate being from ?
But how can you say that Jesus was created first when the scriptures declare that Jesus Christ created all things?
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." Colossians 1:16-17
Also, how can Jesus be before all things if your taking the position that He is one of those things, being that you stated that He was created? That doesn't add up. -
4got to add that the quote "in the beginning" is subjective. the bible is written for humans and for humans that was our beginning however as scripture later explains and as i said in my previous post that was not the 'true' beginning of ALL things.
But the whole word of ? is based on Genesis 1:1 my friend. If a person can't accept that, they will not accept anything else in the Bible. -
DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »I think we are treading on very dangerous ground when we start to symbolize everything that Jesus is talking about. I don't get why Jesus would specifically mention a place where the dead went if it were not true. What would be the point of the illustration? Jesus never lied, so why would he be lying about a place where the dead went upon their death? Abraham was in this place and he had died 1,000's of years prior to this event. Why would Jesus specifally tell us that Abraham was in this place, all though on the other side of the great gulf that was fixed, and that he was speaking to the rich man that had died? Also why would Jesus say that angels carried lazarus into the paradise side of Abraham's ? ? Why would Jesus give us these details if they were just meant to be symbolic representations?
because the pharisees where proclaiming to be offspring of abraham so jesus used abraham as an example. using their own logic against them, thats y he was/is called the greatest teacher that ever lived. john 8:31-58ish further expound on my point also matt 3:9-10. he was basically making the point that if ur claiming to be offspring of abraham do how abraham did or else what is the purpose? they were basically false flagging. claiming to be something but living completely opposite of it and exploited the ppl looking to them for guidance. jesus was explaining that it will not always be that way and basically the one who is last now will be first and the one who is first now will be last so to speak. Galatians 3:16 shows that the only true seed of abraham is jesus christ himself but he did not state that plainly he did not seek to offend or enrage, he sought to teach and he wanted them to use their own powers of reasoning to understand instead of being force fed. because at the end of the day this takes courage faith and mental reasonings and its not always going to be hand fed to you. do the research and let scripture interpret scripture, i wouldnt ? u. -
DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »But the whole word of ? is based on Genesis 1:1 my friend. If a person can't accept that, they will not accept anything else in the Bible.
what do u mean? -
oh no sir. i believe that jesus was created first and through all things ? used him to create everything else based off of job 38:7. the stars where created and the angels cheered and applauded. 1 corinthians 1 15-17 says for in him all things were created and all things were created for and through him. but he is a seperate being from ?
meant to say colossians 1:15-17 -
because the pharisees where proclaiming to be offspring of abraham so jesus used abraham as an example. using their own logic against them, thats y he was/is called the greatest teacher that ever lived. john 8:31-58ish further expound on my point also matt 3:9-10. he was basically making the point that if ur claiming to be offspring of abraham do how abraham did or else what is the purpose? they were basically false flagging. claiming to be something but living completely opposite of it and exploited the ppl looking to them for guidance. jesus was explaining that it will not always be that way and basically the one who is last now will be first and the one who is first now will be last so to speak. Galatians 3:16 shows that the only true seed of abraham is jesus christ himself but he did not state that plainly he did not seek to offend or enrage, he sought to teach and he wanted them to use their own powers of reasoning to understand instead of being force fed. because at the end of the day this takes courage faith and mental reasonings and its not always going to be hand fed to you. do the research and let scripture interpret scripture, i wouldnt ? u.
I agree with your exegesis of the scripture, but I don't agree with the symbolic interpretation of the story. I believe the story to be a literal one because the soul does not sleep. The soul once it is departed goes to be with the Lord if you are saved or to the pit if you are lost. The immortal soul of man must exist in 1 of 2 places. And the story of the rich man and lazarus confirms this. And because scripture agrees with scripture, here are a few more.
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8
This is speaking of a believer who dies in Christ. They are absent from the body because the body must die, but their immortal soul goes to be with the Lord immediately upon death.
That's why near death experiences confirm what is taught in the Bible. When a person dies, they are still conscious after death. When the apostle Paul had a NDE, he was caught up to the 3rd heaven and saw and heard things which he was not allowed to repeat.
"2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: ? knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: ? knoweth 4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." 2 Corinthians 12:2-4
Like I said, scripture agrees with scripture. Paul was caught up to paradise when he had a NDE. This has to indicate that the immortal soul goes to a tangible literal place when a person dies. -
meant to say colossians 1:15-17
but again i think if you read this scripture it might put things n2 perspective.
yes ? created ALL things
yes gen 1:1 says in the beginning he created the heaven and the earth
read the scripture at colossians tho, is it not possible that ? created jesus and gave jesus the power to create the heavens and the earth? that is jesus' kingdom and the scripture says the kingdom was made for and by jesus through the power of ? . how do u see it? -
what do u mean?
You either accept what ? stated in Genesis 1:1 or you don't.
"In the beginning ? created the heaven and the earth."
Everything after that statement of fact must agree with it, which includes Jesus Christ being the creator of the heaven and the earth, which is of course later revealed and expounded upon throughout the scriptures as ? reveals Himself to His creation. -
but again i think if you read this scripture it might put things n2 perspective.
yes ? created ALL things
yes gen 1:1 says in the beginning he created the heaven and the earth
read the scripture at colossians tho, is it not possible that ? created jesus and gave jesus the power to create the heavens and the earth? that is jesus' kingdom and the scripture says the kingdom was made for and by jesus through the power of ? . how do u see it?
I see it that ? is a tri-une being. ? the Father, ? the Son, and ? the Holy Spirit. The religious leaders of Jesus day, the scribes, the pharisees, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, etc. crucified Jesus for the very fact that He claimed to be ? . Take the example of Mark 2 and the man Jesus healed of the palsy.
"1And again he entered into Capernaum, after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house. 2And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. 3And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. 4And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. 6But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but ? only? 8And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 9Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. 12And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified ? , saying, We never saw it on this fashion. "
The scribes accused Jesus of blasphemy because they knew the law backwards and fowards. They knew that only ? can forgive sin, but yet here Jesus is forgiving the sins of this man that he healed. The religious leaders of His day killed Him (Jesus Christ) because He claimed to be ? . And Jesus of course demonstrated that He was ? through the power He exercised on the earth.
He had power over nature, he had power to multiply food from nothing, he had power to heal anything and everything, he had power to forgive sins, and last but not least He had power over death. Only ? has these traits. No human being does. That's why Jesus Christ is the ? -man. He is fully ? and fully man. The scriptures reveal this truth completely. -
DoUwant2go2Heaven? wrote: »I agree with your exegesis of the scripture, but I don't agree with the symbolic interpretation of the story. I believe the story to be a literal one because the soul does not sleep. The soul once it is departed goes to be with the Lord if you are saved or to the pit if you are lost. The immortal soul of man must exist in 1 of 2 places. And the story of the rich man and lazarus confirms this. And because scripture agrees with scripture, here are a few more.
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8
This is speaking of a believer who dies in Christ. They are absent from the body because the body must die, but their immortal soul goes to be with the Lord immediately upon death.
That's why near death experiences confirm what is taught in the Bible. When a person dies, they are still conscious after death. When the apostle Paul had a NDE, he was caught up to the 3rd heaven and saw and heard things which he was not allowed to repeat.
"2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: ? knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: ? knoweth 4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." 2 Corinthians 12:2-4
Like I said, scripture agrees with scripture. Paul was caught up to paradise when he had a NDE. This has to indicate that the immortal soul goes to a place when a person dies.
well if that is the case then the bible would be contradictory and therefore a lie. because the soul is used in so many different contexts through the scriipture you have to decipher it scripture to scripture. just like any word can be extracted and the true meaning could be lost. how would you interpret dueteronomy 12:23 Where blood is said to be a persons soul, or exodus 21:23 where ? 's law states if an accident occurs which results in death a soul must be given for a soul. life for a life. a human wouldnt have the power to take away another's after life unless im mistaken.
as far as paul's near death experience that was a vision from ? ? . anything similar today would not be inspired from ? seeing as how he said that he does not need to do so anymore being that he has given us the complete devine scriptural cannon something that the righteous of that time period did not have.
Heb. 1:1,*2: “? , who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways [including dreams] to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son [Jesus Christ, whose teachings are recorded in the Bible].”
1*Cor. 13:8: “Whether there are gifts of prophesying [and at times ? conveyed prophecies to his servants by means of dreams], they will be done away with.”
2*Tim. 3:16,*17: “All Scripture is inspired of ? and beneficial for teaching .*.*. that the man of ? may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.”
1*Tim. 4:1: “However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances [sometimes conveyed in dreams] and teachings of demons.”
