Reason Debates 3: HLF vs Mr Slim (voting is over HLF wins)

5th Letter

This is the Reason Debates 3, just like the previous debates these are here to stimulate healthy debates in various subjects about hip hop. This debate will remain open for 24 hours, after that time the debate will be over, each poster must post one at a time, each poster is only allowed a total of 3 tries. for example poster A goes first then poster b goes second, then poster A, poster B. No editing once your work is submitted that's it, if you are caught you will lose a vote. There will be a 450 word limit. Also for the lurkers please do not post until after the debate is over. As for voting each poster participating in the Reason Debates 3 is encouraged to vote in the debates as well. When voting please give a detailed reason why you're voting for whoever you're voting for, also vote for whoever made the better argument and NOT THE SIDE YOU AGREE WITH, I will use discretion if I see a vote based on personal opinion and not count that vote. Anyway good luck to both debaters. Whichever debater can go first it doesn't matter.

Does someone that doesn't move units considered one of the all time greats?

HLF- Yes they are an all time great

Mr Slim- No they are not an all time great

Stew

First of all thank you for putting my screen name in all caps like its supposed to be, now If you could put mine back that way for good Id be good to go.

Yes it is very possible for someone to not move units and still be an all time great. Perfect example, Masta Ace and Common. Granted Common has went gold 3 times and his best album(Resurrection)is not one of them, compared to the Jayz's and Eminem's of rap their not even in the same hemisphere. Their greatness comes directly from the actual music and not other accolades like #1 albums, radio spins and or awards from award shows. Other examples would be Scarface and Ice Cube but they at least went Plat a couple times.

They dont cater to the masses(pre Kanye Common) so obviously their music wont sell to Becky in Ohio and Tashanda from Tennessee. Most of the greats who dont sell often have music that goes over many fans heads because its not spoken to them in an elementary way and they dont speak on topics you hear on the radio ie...flat screen tvs, blunts, Ciroc and ? like your typical rapper. I feel like these types of rappers get blackballed in the industry cause they dont sell their souls to rap about the things big label companys want rappers to rap about to make them money.

Now Im not saying that these artist appeal to everybody and should be selling millions of records every time they drop but to not see an artist like Masta Ace at least go gold with some of the classic material he has is just blasphemy and such a downfall for Hip Hop. Still even without the sales and awards these artist belong amongst the greatest of all time because their music is undeniable and timeless.

Mrslim1

Greetings members of the IC and Visitors of the Reason Debates. Good luck to the homie HLF.

Opening,

Although that selling units is not end all be all in determining greatness. There are many factors that are the ingredients of being called great. However moving units is a CRITICAL REQUIREMENT for an artist to be determined an ALL-TIME GREAT.

Garth Brooks , Bob Marley , Metallica , Mary J . Bilge , and Jay-Z are all considered to be an ALL-TIME GREAT in their specific genre of music . Even though these artist have many common threads, the ability to be able to CONSISTENTLY sell records is very important. When you are able to sell records CONSISTENLY, in any selling environment, that means you have a strong connection to you fans and fan-base. Your goal as an ARTIST is too able to appeal to as many different kinds of people as possible with the gift you have been given. When your interpretation of your gift is coming from a place of love for the music your fans gain a deeper connection with your artistry and feel OBLIGATED to buy your music and not download .CONSISTENT sales also shows your ability and talent to move with the times and different trends that come in any specific genre as time progresses.

Now people may ask what CONSISTENT SALES is. In the era of “ if you are not selling 1 million out the gate that means you flopped “ People forget going gold or damn near gold if not a disappointment .If you are able to go sell records and compete for a GOLD album consistently, along with the other factors that determine greatness you can be considered an ALL-TIME GREAT . But you can’t have success without quality or vice versa. When people, especially now, are willing to for something that they can have for free, shows a loyalty to your music. These fans will also support you artistry, by buying concert tickets, watching appearance on TV etc.

Also when we talk about GREATNESS, that can also be translated to what has your music done to impact music history. When you music is able to sell to a wide variety of people, and you are an artist that is able to present the people with quality material consistently. Those sales begin to impact music as a whole. Those sales begin as a seed that grown into the fruit of the next generation of music that will have an impact of future generations of music that all the ALL-Time Greats done in the past.

Stew

In respect to Mrslim's opening argument, its unfair to compare other genre's to rap since this culture is made up of 90% African American males who dont buy music. Reasoning behind that is for another discussion.

He states that "the ability to be able to CONSISTENTLY sell records is very important". I beg to differ for the simple reason that some of the All Time Great's in this genre have NEVER been able to sell from the jump.

KRS-1 has ONE gold album as a solo artist outta 15!

Big Daddy Kane has TWO gold albums outta 7!

Kool G Rap has 0 outta 7

Masta Ace has 0 outta 5

The Roots(Hip Hop's only band) has 2 gold albums outta 9!

You get the point, these are ALL TIME GREATS/PIONEERS. Artists that have all influenced our favorite rappers of today. It's simply not possible to have consistency with sales If you've never gotten the love from the jump. These artists put their heart and soul into their craft and get rejected from our community because what they talk about is not whats "hot". The MC Hammer's and Soulja Boy's get all the limelight by putting out ? while the real gets pushed to the back. Its really sad but its the truth.

Its the music, the impact, the skill that make's these artist with no accolades All Time Greats. They werent/wont be rewarded for it but the respect is necessary.

Mrslim1

Continued

My opponent mentions Hip Hop Pioneers such as The Roots, Krs-One, Master Ace, Kool G Rap and Big Daddy Kane. All of which are no doubt ALL-TIME Greats. This goes further into my point of “What CONSITENT SALES are “All of these artists you mentioned have moved units. Now Krs-One for example has one Gold album, but if he has 3 or 4 that sold 250,000- 400,000 thousand his he not moving units? He may not be doing Eminem and Drake numbers but he is having an impact on hundreds of thousands of people .He was able to have his music to speak to 250,000 people or so we know of. If we had an audience of that many people we could make an impact on many things. We sometimes get caught in an artist going Diamond, which is great, but u can’t discredit the importance of selling 300,000 records. There are many factors that determine your ALL- TIME Great status. Longevity, Talent, Quality, Impact, Being Musically Inclined Sales etc. Some factors may weigh a little heavier depending on the artist. However you should have an element of all of them to be considered an ALL-TIME Great. Vanilla Ice sold a boat load of records however he will never be considered an ALL-TIME Great because he didn’t posses the other factors when considering greatness. Master Ace and Kool G Rap have never when GOLD went. But the access to the masses came differently. They were able to connect to the masses via colabos , movie soundtracks , respect from new artist for a extended period of time. And even though they didn’t sell 1 million in their first week they didn’t do Hell Rell numbers when they were hot .As I said before Sales are not the end all be all when it comes to greatness, however it is a CRITICAL REQUIREMENT when one wants to be considered an ALL-TIME Great. The Roots are also, like many of the great artist of the day, are behind the music. Because they are so musically inclined they are able to connect with MUSICANS from different genres and move units as producers and a house band. And again they still have 2 gold albums. Also again we cannot discredit selling just sort of gold. Now if your deal is messed up that’s on the artist and that is for a different debate.
My Opponent has mentioned many ALL-Time Greats, but even my opponent concedes that many that he has mentioned have moved units. And with every rule there are exceptions, but the RULE is to considered to be an ALL-TIME Great you have to move units.

Stew

Final point.

"Moving Units"

The artist that I mentioned along with many others with their 1 or 2 Gold albums will never be mentioned for having went Gold once or twice. They will simply be remembered for their music. When a Hip Hop journalist brings up KRS-1 or The Roots he wont mention that they went Gold a couple times or that they sold 278,000 copies of Illadelph Halflife because those units dont make them AT ALL and If its not multi platinum nobody cares anyway. Moving units is just a way to say that you sold yourself to the public by coming up with a gimmick or the masses think's your "cool" because you started a new trend. 90% of the time that is the case when somebody in rap moves major units ie... Ja Rule, Nelly, Drake. The All Time Greats that dont move these units are perfectly fine with just coming out with some good music and leave the other ? to the cornballs I just mentioned because more then likely 5 to 10 years from now they will still be in the game while the others will be finding a new career.

When its all said and done the majority of raps All Time Greats will be remembered for their talent and skill rather then them moving units.

Peace

Mrslim1

Conclusion

People that oppose my position may say that " just because an album/artist Move Units doesn't mean that the product is quality". I agree 100% . However, just because an album/artist does sell doesn't mean the product is trash either. ALL-TIME GREATS and to be considered an ALL-TIME GREAT you have to have a LOYAL fan-base. My opponent says “Still even without the sales and awards these artist belong amongst the greatest of all time because their music is undeniable and timeless". The undeniable and timeless aspect of the music is what gains you those LOYAL fans. However ALL-TIME GREATS transcend their specific genre of music. The ability to make a commercial hit does not show the lacking of your talent. If anything it enhances it when you speak of ALL-TIME GREATS, if you legacy of Longevity, Talent, Quality, Impact, Being Musically Inclined are also established by an artist .Ja Rule, Nelly, Drake even though they have moved units would anyone consider them ALL-TIME GREATS ? NO. That’s because they haven't meet the criteria of that it takes to be considered an ALL-TIME GREAT. However when you are able to use your talent to make music that is able to touch different races , fans of different genres , pop culture and also accumulate SALES that is a gift it in its self.

“Ms Jackson” by Outkast was a commercial success. . It was respected by Hip Hop heads for the quality of lyrics, respected by music lovers for the song structure and melody, and made successful by the masses because of the subject matter and the catciness of the hook. There is NO DOUBT they are considered ALL-TIME GREATS.

As i said previously, although that selling units is not end all be all in determining greatness. There are many factors that are the ingredients of being called great. However moving units is a CRITICAL REQUIREMENT for an artist to be determined an ALL-TIME GREAT. And with every rule there are exceptions, but the RULE is to considered to be an ALL-TIME Great you have to move units.

In Closing

ALL-TIME GREATS make impact in not only the genre they are talented in , but also throughout music and pop culture. Hip Hop ALL-TIME GREATS such as Run-DMC, N.W.A, Tupac, Public Enemy, Jay-Z etc have all done that. But they have also Moved Units. You can’t have an ALL-TIME GREAT moniker without selling records.

therealist_

I think it was a pretty good debate ...

In my opinion,
Mr Slim stressed too much on the main topic..
He did a great job explaining consistency, but the "ALL-TIME GREATS" seemed like fillers.

I like how HLF brought up KRS-1, Big Daddy Kane, etc.
Its kinda impossible to rebut against the solidified Greats of hip hop..
This made the start of Slims second post, more supportive to HLF's debate - then his own..

I really liked the last words from both, but i give this to HLF.
That second post really shifted things his way.

KillaCham

This one looks good. Gonna check this out a little later.

Stew

Sorry MrSlim

Skins>Cowgirls

Mrslim1

hlf wrote: »

Sorry MrSlim

Skins>Cowgirls

One vote ? Hey a win is a win. Congrats. But just like a skins fan yall take any win yall can get. This is like when yall won the bowl during the strike season. FLUKE lol

Stew

Yea that's why Joe Gibbs and like 9 players he's coached are in the Hall of Fame. Tune in August to witness another.