What Are Your Opinions On the Creation of the State of Israel?
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hey, you're the one that raised the "Americans don't know ? " issue.nice try although i was born, raised, and currently still live in the U.S. I may not have a master's in history but I will have a master's in international affairs soon.
ok so there have a been a few military coups. so I guess that means you're only a democracy as long as you can circumvent your own laws ( such as secret military tribunals, targeted assassinations, torture, etc). All of that doesnt matter because the U.S. is still a "democracy" even though its actually a republic
also, look, here's the point: i asked you to name a country that is:
a) predominantly Muslim;
b) a democracy; and
c) gets called "fundamentalists/terrorists."
saying the US does bad deeds or is hypocritical has NOTHING to do with whether or not a country fits those standards. maybe you could address the topic instead of just resorting to "but, but, the US is evil too!" you threw out Pakistan, not me. -
the difference here is a) you're claiming that it's ignorant to label them a terrorist country (which i actually didn't do), so the fact of them having such connections to terrorists undermines THAT POINT, and b) the US is not nearly as in bed with the groups we're talking about as the Pakistanis are. sorry.You talk about having back channels with terrorists? seriously? you DO realize that the the U.S. also has (and uses some of the same) back channels to talk to the "terrorists."
LOL there you again with your silliness. Do you have any evidence to these connections or is it simply stuff you hear on the news? Unless you're in intelligence I doubt you can fully speak to the veracity of those claims (which is all they are). Leon Panetta (or whoever else) goes on air and states Pakistan is helping the terrorists and you just believe it? I guess you also believe the US can do no harm? Only Pakistan has dubious intentions in the so-called "war on terror?" After all its easy to use drones to drop bombs on people and justify the killing of all the people there by stating that anybody of military age is ok to target (obama uses this justification in the use of drones). If Pakistan is so allied with these terrorists tell me why THEY are the SAME ones attacking Pakistan? Tell me why at least 40,000 Pakistani civilians have been killed since the "war on terror" started? The US has and will continue to use whatever tactics it deems necessary to achieve its goals. In the 70's and 80's the taliban/mujahideen were supported by the US and now those same people are called terrorists because they are fighting the OCCUPATION of their OWN country! If you honestly studied history you would know the Pushtoon will fight to death and history has always shown them to outlast their opponents. -
please don't give me the "learn something about history" comment and then drop this erroneous talking point. what we call the Taliban developed after that conflict; we didn't train the Taliban; the arming comes from multiple countries (including the US); and Pakistan's tight controls over the mujaheddin in that conflict - here's the ISI again - mean it's more like we gave money and supplies to the ISI to distribute and they favored certain people (say, Hekmatyar versus Massoud) and built relationships.The US also trained and armed the taliban to fight against the Soviets so whats your point? ... As for Kashmir you once again are showing you dont really know much about the issue so i'll leave it at that
...and i'm guessing the latter is code for "i don't want to acknowledge how Pakistan addresses the issue, so i'll just avoid it."
again you're showing why I keep telling you that you dont know what you're talking about. The mujahiddeen and the taliban are basically one and the same. Its the same people who were sitting around in Afghanistan with nothing to do and ended up forming the Taliban. In contrast look at Jalalludin Haqqani (Haqqani Network) and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (Hezb-e-Islami), both of whom were senior mujahiddeen commanders who fought against the Soviets with support from the US/Pak. Now both of these groups are not technically part of the original Taliban but are allied with them because of their opposition to the US. At the same time people like you use a blanket term like Taliban to lump all of these groups together.
As for Kashmir I can fully address the issue but whats the point? you already came to a conclusion since you know best. You clearly show why the Pakistanis dont want to help the US because whenever they do they are called the bad guys and get screwed every which way for it but somehow they continue to help them anyway
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my point actually is more along the lines of "because people have beef with the way the US currently deals with Israel, they feel compelled to attribute EVERYTHING related to Israel to the US." whereas i think we see you're glossing over who's most responsible (say, the UK or the Ottomans) because you want to shoehorn the US in there.look you can try to re-write history if you want but it doesnt change things. Your way of making your point is to try to understate the role of the US in the creation of Israel but history has shown otherwise.
it's fine if you want to talk about current events and then go back some decades, but i didn't think this thread had us talking about current events.
here's the thing you're mixing history and current events. lets just assume for a minute the US didnt have that big of a role in israel's creation. Its not like these people ignored their "beef" with the British or even the Ottoman then. They fought against them too! However currently who is the main supporter of israel? the US so obviously more of the anger will be directed there. History shows the US DID have a key role in the creation of Israel so that only provides fuel to the fire. They have backed off of say Britain (and the Ottoman Empire only because it doesnt exist now) because the british are no longer the major supporter of Israel.
I want you to ask yourself some questions. Why does the US have an undying support for Israel unparalleled to any other nation on the earth? Why is the the US claims to be neutral yet shows CLEAR support for Israel in all matters? The Israeli govt has been occupying the Palestinian territories for decades with the support of the US (and others) and you still wonder why they are hated so much? -
let me just cut you off with two things:LOL there you again with your silliness. Do you have any evidence to these connections or is it simply stuff you hear on the news? Unless you're in intelligence I doubt you can fully speak to the veracity of those claims (which is all they are).
a) i don't watch the news;
b) if you tell me i have to be intelligence to know something, you'd better be in intelligence yourself if you claim you know about it. otherwise, we can just discuss the topic like adults?
completely irrelevant to the question. to repeat, maybe you could address the topic instead of just resorting to "but, but, the US is evil too!"I guess you also believe the US can do no harm? -
no, all Taliban might be mujaheddin, but not all mujaheddin are Taliban. frankly, i think you spend much more time deciding no one but yourself knows anything than actually covering the topic.again you're showing why I keep telling you that you dont know what you're talking about. The mujahiddeen and the taliban are basically one and the same. Its the same people who were sitting around in Afghanistan with nothing to do and ended up forming the Taliban. In contrast look at Jalalludin Haqqani (Haqqani Network) and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (Hezb-e-Islami), both of whom were senior mujahiddeen commanders who fought against the Soviets with support from the US/Pak.
and yes, let's look at Hekmatyar, since i brought him up for a reason. against the Soviets, the Pakistanis took our money and material, insisted we stay out of Afghanistan, and then funneled the goods to the guys like him that they preferred. go go ISI.
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one, please show me where i lumped all these groups together.At the same time people like you use a blanket term like Taliban to lump all of these groups together.
two, YOU just said "mujahiddeen and the taliban are basically one and the same." so who's actually using the blanket term?
and if you're going to play the "why post, since you disagree with me" game, then i have to ask, why are you bothering to post in this thread at all?As for Kashmir I can fully address the issue but whats the point? you already came to a conclusion since you know best. You clearly show why the Pakistanis dont want to help the US because whenever they do they are called the bad guys and get screwed every which way for it but somehow they continue to help them anyway
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i'm actually not the one mixing history and current events. you are LITERALLY going right to "who is the main supporter of Israel" one sentence after discussing the creation of Israel. i, however, am NOT talking about the issue of who is currently the main supporter of Israel. i don't know why you think i am OR why talking about it relates to my posts on the creation of Israel.here's the thing you're mixing history and current events. lets just assume for a minute the US didnt have that big of a role in israel's creation. Its not like these people ignored their "beef" with the British or even the Ottoman then. They fought against them too! However currently who is the main supporter of israel? the US so obviously more of the anger will be directed there.
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i should also add that this "incredible amount of posts" thing is some ridiculous fluke that i ? despise. anyway...
did i wonder that? or did i ask "why are you asking me these questions when i have not been talking about ANY of that?"I want you to ask yourself some questions. Why does the US have an undying support for Israel unparalleled to any other nation on the earth? Why is the the US claims to be neutral yet shows CLEAR support for Israel in all matters? The Israeli govt has been occupying the Palestinian territories for decades with the support of the US (and others) and you still wonder why they are hated so much? -
My opinions is this everything that is going on is against THE WORD OF YHWH, so it really doesn't matters.
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let me just cut you off with two things:LOL there you again with your silliness. Do you have any evidence to these connections or is it simply stuff you hear on the news? Unless you're in intelligence I doubt you can fully speak to the veracity of those claims (which is all they are).
a) i don't watch the news;
b) if you tell me i have to be intelligence to know something, you'd better be in intelligence yourself if you claim you know about it. otherwise, we can just discuss the topic like adults?
completely irrelevant to the question. to repeat, maybe you could address the topic instead of just resorting to "but, but, the US is evil too!"I guess you also believe the US can do no harm?
i said that you have to be in intelligence to speak so definitively on whats going on. there is such a thing as propaganda and psychological warfare
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no, all Taliban might be mujaheddin, but not all mujaheddin are Taliban. frankly, i think you spend much more time deciding no one but yourself knows anything than actually covering the topic.again you're showing why I keep telling you that you dont know what you're talking about. The mujahiddeen and the taliban are basically one and the same. Its the same people who were sitting around in Afghanistan with nothing to do and ended up forming the Taliban. In contrast look at Jalalludin Haqqani (Haqqani Network) and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (Hezb-e-Islami), both of whom were senior mujahiddeen commanders who fought against the Soviets with support from the US/Pak.
and yes, let's look at Hekmatyar, since i brought him up for a reason. against the Soviets, the Pakistanis took our money and material, insisted we stay out of Afghanistan, and then funneled the goods to the guys like him that they preferred. go go ISI.
probably because i am Pakistani and I grew up learning about these things before most of you had even heard about them.
as opposed to the US sending it to some other fighter. you act as if the US had the best interest of afghanistan at hand. what do u expect Pakistan base its national interests on? how best they can do things for the US? you dont think the US is taking action that undermines Pakistan there? your problem is your speaking about this issue as if the US is right and everyone else is wrong
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one, please show me where i lumped all these groups together.At the same time people like you use a blanket term like Taliban to lump all of these groups together.
two, YOU just said "mujahiddeen and the taliban are basically one and the same." so who's actually using the blanket term?
and if you're going to play the "why post, since you disagree with me" game, then i have to ask, why are you bothering to post in this thread at all?As for Kashmir I can fully address the issue but whats the point? you already came to a conclusion since you know best. You clearly show why the Pakistanis dont want to help the US because whenever they do they are called the bad guys and get screwed every which way for it but somehow they continue to help them anyway
the taliban and mujahiddeen are one and the same in terms of ideology. both fought a jihad to ride their lands of kuffar (non-believers according to them) do you even know what mujahiddeen means without having to look it up?
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i'm actually not the one mixing history and current events. you are LITERALLY going right to "who is the main supporter of Israel" one sentence after discussing the creation of Israel. i, however, am NOT talking about the issue of who is currently the main supporter of Israel. i don't know why you think i am OR why talking about it relates to my posts on the creation of Israel.here's the thing you're mixing history and current events. lets just assume for a minute the US didnt have that big of a role in israel's creation. Its not like these people ignored their "beef" with the British or even the Ottoman then. They fought against them too! However currently who is the main supporter of israel? the US so obviously more of the anger will be directed there.
no actually im talking about how current events and history tie together because basically not much has changed. i even offered support as to my conclusions. there is ample evidence out there that shows the US's role in the creation of israel, a simple google search will show you as much. I even tried to point out that logically speaking such staunch support of a nation would have to be based on some sort of history between the two, it just doesnt happen over night.
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i should also add that this "incredible amount of posts" thing is some ridiculous fluke that i ? despise. anyway...
did i wonder that? or did i ask "why are you asking me these questions when i have not been talking about ANY of that?"I want you to ask yourself some questions. Why does the US have an undying support for Israel unparalleled to any other nation on the earth? Why is the the US claims to be neutral yet shows CLEAR support for Israel in all matters? The Israeli govt has been occupying the Palestinian territories for decades with the support of the US (and others) and you still wonder why they are hated so much?
what in the ? hell are you talking about?
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okay, let's be clear about the exchange here.i said that you have to be in intelligence to speak so definitively on whats going on. there is such a thing as propaganda and psychological warfare
janklow: "the fact of [Pakistan] having such connections to terrorists undermines THAT POINT, and b) the US is not nearly as in bed with the groups we're talking about as the Pakistanis are"
husnain1: "Unless you're in intelligence I doubt you can fully speak to the veracity of those claims (which is all they are)."
so if i have to be in intelligence to make those statements, why don't you have to be in intelligence to claim they're not true? -
so, in other words, you might not know anything about other posters on this forum - their background, their education, their level of knowledge, etc, etc - but because you're of Pakistani descent you know 100% fact about the topic? please. and this on the heels of you posting "there is such a thing as propaganda and psychological warfare." if you don't see the problem with saying being Pakistani means you decide who does and does not know the topic solely on the grounds of "i'm Pakistani," ? , i don't know what to tell you (and i think i also recall you saying "i was born, raised, and currently still live in the U.S.")probably because i am Pakistani and I grew up learning about these things before most of you had even heard about them...
i didn't say the US had the best interest of Afghanistan at heart, i said what Pakistan did (and we're straying into that familiar territory where you insist we have to talk about CURRENT EVENTS to talk about the past). the counterpoint is that you don't seem to accept that Pakistan's interests might be ones that led them to ? the US over on this issue (say, funding a guy like Hekmatyar because you figure the US will eventually leave and thus wanting to keep him in their corner).
finally i'm speaking on this issue not because the US is right and everyone else is wrong, but because i'm pointing out it's not for no reason someone might label Pakistan "fundamentalists/terrorists." oddly enough, i don't think i have even called them that myself. hmmm.
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a better question is, do you have the ability to debate a topic WITHOUT your argument being "no one knows what they're talking about but me?" because that one is clearly designed for the sole purpose of talking ? and nothing more.the taliban and mujahiddeen are one and the same in terms of ideology. both fought a jihad to ride their lands of kuffar (non-believers according to them) do you even know what mujahiddeen means without having to look it up?
fine, let's look it up:
mujahideen: Islamic guerrilla fighters especially in the Middle East (yes, it's a little more general than that, i suppose)
Taliban: a fundamentalist Islamic militia in Afghanistan
so, once again i will post this: "no, all Taliban might be mujaheddin, but not all mujaheddin are Taliban."
also, let me know when you want to address your OWN use of blanket terminology.
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i did not say there was no history between the US and Israel, as there obviously is. however, this history does not necessary have anything to do with the CREATION of Israel.no actually im talking about how current events and history tie together because basically not much has changed. i even offered support as to my conclusions. there is ample evidence out there that shows the US's role in the creation of israel, a simple google search will show you as much. I even tried to point out that logically speaking such staunch support of a nation would have to be based on some sort of history between the two, it just doesnt happen over night.
further, i'll just point out that despite the fact that both the Ottomans and the British considered it their property to dispose of as they saw fit, the single country you want to focus on is the US. hmmm.
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if you were less defensive, you might realize how many times i personally have been posting in this thread.what in the ? hell are you talking about?
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okay, let's be clear about the exchange here.i said that you have to be in intelligence to speak so definitively on whats going on. there is such a thing as propaganda and psychological warfare
janklow: "the fact of [Pakistan] having such connections to terrorists undermines THAT POINT, and b) the US is not nearly as in bed with the groups we're talking about as the Pakistanis are"
husnain1: "Unless you're in intelligence I doubt you can fully speak to the veracity of those claims (which is all they are)."
so if i have to be in intelligence to make those statements, why don't you have to be in intelligence to claim they're not true?
i conceded that. which leaves us at a moot point -
so, in other words, you might not know anything about other posters on this forum - their background, their education, their level of knowledge, etc, etc - but because you're of Pakistani descent you know 100% fact about the topic? please. and this on the heels of you posting "there is such a thing as propaganda and psychological warfare." if you don't see the problem with saying being Pakistani means you decide who does and does not know the topic solely on the grounds of "i'm Pakistani," ? , i don't know what to tell you (and i think i also recall you saying "i was born, raised, and currently still live in the U.S.")probably because i am Pakistani and I grew up learning about these things before most of you had even heard about them...
i didn't say the US had the best interest of Afghanistan at heart, i said what Pakistan did (and we're straying into that familiar territory where you insist we have to talk about CURRENT EVENTS to talk about the past). the counterpoint is that you don't seem to accept that Pakistan's interests might be ones that led them to ? the US over on this issue (say, funding a guy like Hekmatyar because you figure the US will eventually leave and thus wanting to keep him in their corner).
finally i'm speaking on this issue not because the US is right and everyone else is wrong, but because i'm pointing out it's not for no reason someone might label Pakistan "fundamentalists/terrorists." oddly enough, i don't think i have even called them that myself. hmmm.
1) umm No. the point was that I might actually understand Pakistan's history and internal politics in a way that might not make sense to you. you might just have learned about some of these people now but again we've known about them for years. for instance you might have HEARD about asif ali zardari but do you know of first hand accounts of the things he's done and been accused of? I doubt it. maybe if you did you might interpret things in a different light. For example, instead of implying that Pakistan may be a terrorist state based on whats been happening in the past 10 or so years, you could actually look at its history and understand that Pakistan has always been "moderate" in terms of its religious values.
2) I fully admit Pakistan would do things to screw over the US if it was in its best interests (hell every country does things like that), however Pakistan has done far more to help the US and has had to pay for it in the blood of its soldiers and citizens. Coupled with the fact that this has been the US's m.o. from the start of its relationship with Pakistan I dont think you can blame Pakistan for being a reluctant partner.
3) No one ever stated you said anything. When I say "you" im speaking in a general nature. Furthermore, here's the problem with you thinking that there is a reason why these people are being labelled terrorists/fundamentalists, I dont think you understand enough about islam to make a distinction from someone who is following the faith in its intended form. for example, one may call them terrorists because they believe they are fighting jihad. here's the problem, westerners here jihad and then equate it with fundamentalism. in islam jihad is a concept that has many different meanings. for example, the jihad that westerners know of is when it is applied to war, however a key misunderstanding is that a true jihad can ONLY be defensive in nature! Now if one doesnt understand this point they can make the "intellectual" leap of equating islam with terrorism. On the flip side the afghanis (taliban or whoever else) believe they are defending themselves after all they were attacked they didnt do the attacking. the most the taliban could be accused of was giving sanctuary to bin Laden which if you go back and research the issue you'd see the taliban did state that if evidence was provided for bin Laden's guilt they would try him in an islamic court. So again in their view they were the ones being attacked so for them jihad is justified ( it would still be a problematic issue from an islamic legal point of view). one needs to understand the religion before one can even pretend they understand what terms like fundamentalism and wahhabi even mean. maybe then you might understand why terrorism seems to only be associated with muslims. when a white man shot up a theatre in aurora, colorado he wasnt called a terrorist even though in the strict sense of the term what he did WAS an act of terrorism. instead you have people questioning his sanity. when a black person commits a crime he is stereotyped because thats what black people do and now when muslims or those claiming to be muslims (and there is a huge difference there) commit violence its labelled as terrorism. the point in all of this that before one applies labels one must understand them first, especially from a point of view that is not of your own.
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no. i really dont know what you were talking about there.
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i did not say there was no history between the US and Israel, as there obviously is. however, this history does not necessary have anything to do with the CREATION of Israel.no actually im talking about how current events and history tie together because basically not much has changed. i even offered support as to my conclusions. there is ample evidence out there that shows the US's role in the creation of israel, a simple google search will show you as much. I even tried to point out that logically speaking such staunch support of a nation would have to be based on some sort of history between the two, it just doesnt happen over night.
further, i'll just point out that despite the fact that both the Ottomans and the British considered it their property to dispose of as they saw fit, the single country you want to focus on is the US. hmmm.
1) thats just it! ive posted enough evidence to negate that claim. history shows the US had A LOT to do with the creation of israel. Maybe it didnt fire the gun but it supplied the bullets.
2) the Ottoman Empire doesnt exist now im sure if it did the Palestinians would have beef with them now. The British took a back seat in the world as a major player. They simply dont matter as much now, however, the Palestinians still have a lot of indignation for them too.
as a side note. the fact that the western powers called for the dissolution of the Islamic Caliphate (which had been around for 1300 years by that time shows again a religious battle being fought.
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a better question is, do you have the ability to debate a topic WITHOUT your argument being "no one knows what they're talking about but me?" because that one is clearly designed for the sole purpose of talking ? and nothing more.the taliban and mujahiddeen are one and the same in terms of ideology. both fought a jihad to ride their lands of kuffar (non-believers according to them) do you even know what mujahiddeen means without having to look it up?
fine, let's look it up:
mujahideen: Islamic guerrilla fighters especially in the Middle East (yes, it's a little more general than that, i suppose)
Taliban: a fundamentalist Islamic militia in Afghanistan
so, once again i will post this: "no, all Taliban might be mujaheddin, but not all mujaheddin are Taliban."
also, let me know when you want to address your OWN use of blanket terminology.
those are the definitions the west have given each to describe them however, they miss the mark.
a mujihad is a muslim engaged in jihad.
taliban is derived from the arabic word talib meaning student. however, the taliban are also mujahid in the sense that they are muslims engaged in jihad. the issue is one being justified while the other being crucified according to the needs of american foreign policy
its kind of ironic that you dont get why I say I understand the issue more than you do when you keep misunderstanding the argument
once again both the mujahiddeen and the taliban waged jihad against who they saw as oppressors. they're fundamentally the same because both are based on the same principles. maybe thats why u dont get why its not a blanket statement!
This discussion has been closed.