Why Black People Must Stand With Palestine

_Menace_
_Menace_ Members, Writer Posts: 26,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
Seen this posted on facebook found it interesting.


palestine_caro_article-small_42644.jpg


One writer says the struggles faced by African Americans and Palestinians are more similar than we may know
Two years ago, a viral video emerged of a Palestinian alumnus named Fadi Quran being pepper sprayed and arrested while nonviolently protesting in the West Bank. As a journalist for The Stanford Daily, I had the opportunity to cover his arrest and detainment. And in the process, my eyes were opened to a whole conflict I was shocked I hadn’t heard about before. I learned that he had been protesting the closure of Shuhada Street—the main road in the West Bank’s largest city—because the Israeli military forbids Palestinians using it, only allowing Israeli settlers and foreigners to pass. I had learned that the pepper spray soldiers shot in Fadi’s face was made in the U.S. and that our government sends the Israeli military $3 billion a year in aid that helps fund this violent occupation. When I interviewed Fadi upon his release from jail, he remarked that the Israeli military court would have likely detained him indefinitely on the madeup charge that he had attacked ten soldiers were it not for the video and international solidarity.

Last summer I found myself standing on the exact street where Fadi was protesting. Thousands of miles away from the US, I was visiting a place that has come to symbolize the worst aspects of military occupation and colonization in Palestine. My group’s tour guide, Issa attempted to walk us down Shuhada Street—but a pair of Israeli soldiers not more than 21-years-old stopped him and told him he could not pass. Issa, who was born and raised in the house right next to the checkpoint, would be subject to arrest for continuing down the street. Between the video I took of this encounter and the many examples of separate and unequal treatment between Israelis and Palestinians I saw, I felt like I was watching some dystopic mashup of the pass laws Blacks faced in apartheid South Africa and the cruel humiliation of the Jim Crow South.

Fadi’s 2012 arrest occurred two days before Trayvon Martin’s murder, and both of these events pushed me to become active in the Black movement for freedom at home and justice for Palestinians abroad. In educating myself about what Palestinians experience, I began to see the interconnectedness of our struggles.

I learned how the police brutality African Americans and other minorities face in the US is directly tied to violence in Palestine. Since 2001, thousands of top police officials from cities across the US have gone to Israel for training alongside its military or have participated in joint exercises here. Just weeks before Oakland police violently broke up an Occupy rally, they had trained with repressive forces from Israel and Bahrain. In Georgia in 2006, a 92-year-old black woman was shot and killed by Atlanta police who had participated in an exchange program with Israeli soldiers on counterterrorism and drug enforcement. Our governments literally share resources and tactics with each other that directly harm our respective communities.

The experiences of African Americans and Palestinians with systemic mass incarceration are also strikingly similar. Forty percent of Palestinian men have been arrested and detained by Israel at some point in their lives. (To put this in perspective, the 2008 figure for Blacks was 1 in 11.) Israel maintains policies of detaining and interrogating Palestinian children that bear resemblance to the stop and frisk policy and disproportionate raids and arrests many of our youth face.

My five-week visit to Palestine last summer occurred less than a month after George Zimmerman’s verdict was released. Outside of Bethlehem, I was shocked to find a memorial to Trayvon Martin painted on the 24-foot separation wall Israel builds on Palestinian land. I was even more shocked at how viscerally I noticed similarities between Stand Your Ground laws at home and Israel’s justification for its treatment of Palestinians. I had heard story after story about how the Israeli military had used the “security threat” argument to justify the closing of Shuhada Street, shooting tear gas into a house full of women and children, barring my Palestinian-American friend from re-entering the country to continue her study abroad. Palestinians, Blacks and other groups in colonialist countries are “security threats” by our very existence of surviving under systems that seek to destroy us.

What is “safety” when the thing people are safe from is us? Who is looking out to protect the lives of Fadi or Trayvon? Why do our societies dismiss our narratives? And when our tax dollars fund the police and military systems that ? our communities here and abroad, what can we do to claim safety and protection for ourselves?

To me, our hope for this century may come from joint solidarity with marginalized people all over the world. Palestinians appeal not to the government that occupies and oppresses them, but to international bodies and universal principles of human rights for freedom. Similar to the Palestinians’ call for people of conscience to boycott and divest from companies that support their oppression, we might call on people abroad to pressure an end to "the New Jim Crow"---mass incarceration. Black movements have a rich history of alliances with those fighting racism and imperialism across the world, from Algeria to South Africa, El Salvador to Cuba.

After decades of strong resistance to discrimination and oppression at home and abroad, it seems more than coincidental that the progress of our past has been weakened by imprisonment drugs and isolation from the rest of the world. Most of us know very little about the Palestinian struggle and mainstream Palestinian society seemed to think everything is okay in terms of race in the United States today. In our separation, both of our relative struggles as Blacks and Palestinians remain ignored by the larger society. The time is ripe to rebuild those connections. Strong Black solidarity with the Palestinian struggle seems necessary and urgent. We must work together to address the effects of money, policing and militarism here and in Israel/Palestine.


http://www.ebony.com/news-views/why-black-people-must-stand-with-palestine-402#ixzz37xzsgDC4
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Comments

  • soulbrother
    soulbrother Members Posts: 2,897 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To be honest I don't really care what happens in Israel or Palenstine...unless this war gonna add 25k more dollars to my yearly check...f@ck that war they talking bout...As black people we need to stand up for the brothers/sisters over here before we worry so much about another nation...let's stand for that Father of 6 who got killed by the NYPD....Let's stand for all the young people getting killed in Chicago everyday...we criticize Reverend All Sharpton and Jesse Jackson for standing up for every black injustice in the US but we're quick to stand up for some people on the other side of the world...(steps off soapbox)
  • Ajackson17
    Ajackson17 Members Posts: 22,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nah Palestine my people need me here and when did you stand for us?
  • Mr.LV
    Mr.LV Members Posts: 14,089 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fight your own battles
  • Maximus Rex
    Maximus Rex Members Posts: 6,354 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Unless you're a Muslim, they could give a ? about us.

    Maybe is the Arabs, (namely the ones that are hellbent on concluding the Final Solution,) would accept the fact the State of Israel isn't going anywhere, maybe they would be better off.

    They started that ? and are ? they can't beat the Israelis on the battlefield.

    Why isn't there a worldwide effort to (especially on their part,) to find those poor girls that were kidnapped by Boko Haram.

    They're ? ' about being conquerors in somebody else's ancestral and spiritual homeland, make war upon those people, then cry and complain when they start getting their ? kicked. ? 'em.
  • MeekMonizzLLLLLLe14
    MeekMonizzLLLLLLe14 Members Posts: 15,337 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2014
    both sides of this conflict are wrong as ? . I get many men wish death upon Israel and i get the prison that is Gaza and the West bank which offers many no future. But Hamas plays ? and so does Israel.

    Also i hope ? realize Muslim militant gangs are killing off Africans and ruling northern and central africa ? over the native tribes people and anyone who don't rep Allah. I know Gaza is still far from Central Africa but them ? are not to far off in beliefs.

    Everyone gets worked up about the white man bringing them down but those of Middle Eastern Decent who practice Islam are bringing down those of African Decent far worse than and white person.
  • cainvelasquez
    cainvelasquez Members Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Unless you're a Muslim, they could give a ? about us.

    Maybe is the Arabs, (namely the ones that are hellbent on concluding the Final Solution,) would accept the fact the State of Israel isn't going anywhere, maybe they would be better off.

    They started that ? and are ? they can't beat the Israelis on the battlefield.

    Why isn't there a worldwide effort to (especially on their part,) to find those poor girls that were kidnapped by Boko Haram.

    They're ? ' about being conquerors in somebody else's ancestral and spiritual homeland, make war upon those people, then cry and complain when they start getting their ? kicked. ? 'em.

    Obama, bring back our army.
  • Ajackson17
    Ajackson17 Members Posts: 22,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ? Arabs for real they have been doing us ? for so long it's unreal. I don't support Israel but I'm not saving those Arabs from nothing.
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Members Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2014
    ? Arabs for real they have been doing us ? for so long it's unreal. I don't support Israel but I'm not saving those Arabs from nothing.

    What Arabs did to Black Africans during the Arab slave raiding days was disgusting and frankly, one reason why Black people don't really go hard for the Palestinian struggle. The educated among us know many Arabs were no different then the crackas of the 1800s and before and in Sudan, some Arabs are still ? Blacks over.

    But Arabs did do us some good too, Gaddafi did a lot for sub Saharan Africa and when Iran captured many American hostages during the 70s, Iran actually let the Black hostages go, because they considered Blacks in America victims during that time period. And like someone here said earlier, many Arabs in the Middle East use Black Americans as inspiration for their own struggles. 2pac is big in the Middle East. So in the end, I still support the Palestinians and their struggle. Wrong is wrong to me.
  • Ajackson17
    Ajackson17 Members Posts: 22,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ? Arabs for real they have been doing us ? for so long it's unreal. I don't support Israel but I'm not saving those Arabs from nothing.

    What Arabs did to Black Africans during the Arab slave raiding days was disgusting and frankly, one reason why Black people don't really go hard for the Palestinian struggle. The educated among us know many Arabs were no different then the crackas of the 1800s and before and in Sudan, some Arabs are still ? Blacks over.

    But Arabs did do us some good too, Gaddafi did a lot for sub Saharan Africa and when Iran captured many American hostages during the 70s, Iran actually let the Black hostages go, because they considered Blacks in America victims during that time period. And like someone here said earlier, many Arabs in the Middle East use Black Americans as inspiration for their own struggles. 2pac is big in the Middle East. So in the end, I still support the Palestinians and their struggle. Wrong is wrong to me.

    I understand why you feel this way and Gaddafi was a rare man period. Point being is that they do recognize our suffering under America but they use as political fuel fo their propaganda and religious movement.
  • janklow
    janklow Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    But Arabs did do us some good too, Gaddafi did a lot for sub Saharan Africa
    such as...
    and when Iran captured many American hostages during the 70s, Iran actually let the Black hostages go, because they considered Blacks in America victims during that time period.
    uh... if you don't see the political calculation there, i don't know what to tell you. it's not like Iranians have the world's best track record on minorities themselves (though i suppose their bigger issue is religious minorities).

  • _Menace_
    _Menace_ Members, Writer Posts: 26,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ? Arabs for real they have been doing us ? for so long it's unreal. I don't support Israel but I'm not saving those Arabs from nothing.

    What Arabs did to Black Africans during the Arab slave raiding days was disgusting and frankly, one reason why Black people don't really go hard for the Palestinian struggle. The educated among us know many Arabs were no different then the crackas of the 1800s and before and in Sudan, some Arabs are still ? Blacks over.

    But Arabs did do us some good too, Gaddafi did a lot for sub Saharan Africa and when Iran captured many American hostages during the 70s, Iran actually let the Black hostages go, because they considered Blacks in America victims during that time period. And like someone here said earlier, many Arabs in the Middle East use Black Americans as inspiration for their own struggles. 2pac is big in the Middle East. So in the end, I still support the Palestinians and their struggle. Wrong is wrong to me.

    you dont know the half of it. Pac is huge out there
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Members Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    janklow wrote: »
    But Arabs did do us some good too, Gaddafi did a lot for sub Saharan Africa
    such as...
    and when Iran captured many American hostages during the 70s, Iran actually let the Black hostages go, because they considered Blacks in America victims during that time period.
    uh... if you don't see the political calculation there, i don't know what to tell you. it's not like Iranians have the world's best track record on minorities themselves (though i suppose their bigger issue is religious minorities).

    Of course I get the political calculation Iran did freeing the Black hostages of the 70s and letting the Whites stay hostages for over a year lol. People worldwide were mostly sympathetic to the Black struggle in America.

    As far as Gaddafi, he was a public supporter of the freedom for South Africa under apartheid and showed plenty of love to Africans who were fighting against European colonialism back in the 50s up to the 80s. He gave weapons and aid to African nations who fought against it, so Gaddafi always gets some cool points from me on that. He could've turned into a sellout with all the money he had but he instead used his influence to fight against colonialism, even in sub-Saharan Africa.
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Members Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    _Menace_ wrote: »
    ? Arabs for real they have been doing us ? for so long it's unreal. I don't support Israel but I'm not saving those Arabs from nothing.

    What Arabs did to Black Africans during the Arab slave raiding days was disgusting and frankly, one reason why Black people don't really go hard for the Palestinian struggle. The educated among us know many Arabs were no different then the crackas of the 1800s and before and in Sudan, some Arabs are still ? Blacks over.

    But Arabs did do us some good too, Gaddafi did a lot for sub Saharan Africa and when Iran captured many American hostages during the 70s, Iran actually let the Black hostages go, because they considered Blacks in America victims during that time period. And like someone here said earlier, many Arabs in the Middle East use Black Americans as inspiration for their own struggles. 2pac is big in the Middle East. So in the end, I still support the Palestinians and their struggle. Wrong is wrong to me.

    you dont know the half of it. Pac is huge out there

    My boy is from Pakistan and travels a lot, he tells me that all the time
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Members Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ? Arabs for real they have been doing us ? for so long it's unreal. I don't support Israel but I'm not saving those Arabs from nothing.

    What Arabs did to Black Africans during the Arab slave raiding days was disgusting and frankly, one reason why Black people don't really go hard for the Palestinian struggle. The educated among us know many Arabs were no different then the crackas of the 1800s and before and in Sudan, some Arabs are still ? Blacks over.

    But Arabs did do us some good too, Gaddafi did a lot for sub Saharan Africa and when Iran captured many American hostages during the 70s, Iran actually let the Black hostages go, because they considered Blacks in America victims during that time period. And like someone here said earlier, many Arabs in the Middle East use Black Americans as inspiration for their own struggles. 2pac is big in the Middle East. So in the end, I still support the Palestinians and their struggle. Wrong is wrong to me.

    I understand why you feel this way and Gaddafi was a rare man period. Point being is that they do recognize our suffering under America but they use as political fuel fo their propaganda and religious movement.

    Yeah for better or for worse the Black struggle in America has been used to politically fuel all kinds of bad things in the Middle East but we gotta remember all courageous movements throughout history can be used to fuel bad movements too. It doesn't take much to bastardize a movement, sadly.
  • _Menace_
    _Menace_ Members, Writer Posts: 26,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Members Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2014
    _Menace_ wrote: »
    kufiya.mandela.algeria.may90.jpg

    mandelaarafat-1024x652.jpg

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSUHH7By9QE8lE4TmuWTZx4IvyTSojxCZlFSUCYpl2uzqM0ubEkXQ

    Mandela+on+Palestinians.jpg

    800_iygnezqjcmdbkgwn63aklu7jhryd3zwp.jpg


    nuff said

    Great pictures. Here's some of an article the great Mandela wrote to a NY Times columnist who supported Israel's apartheid. If I'm not mistaken, that NY Times columnist is now less a supporter of Israel

    http://www.keghart.com/Mandela-Palestine

    By Nelson Mandela, in Jefferson Corner - America's Speaker's Corner, 28 March 2001

    Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.

    The responses made by South Africa to human rights abuses emanating from the removal policies and Apartheid policies respectively, shed light on what Israeli society must necessarily go through before one can speak of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East and an end to its Apartheid policies.

    Thomas, I’m not abandoning Mideast diplomacy. But I’m not going to indulge you the way your supporters do. If you want peace and democracy, I will support you. If you want formal Apartheid, we will not support you. If you want to support racial discrimination and ethnic cleansing, we will oppose you.

    When you figure out what you’re about, give me a call.
  • indyman87
    indyman87 Members Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭✭
    Black people cannot help the Palestinians because we have no political power. Ironically it was the White Arabs that help did this when they convinced Malcolm X to abandoned his ideology during his trip to Mecca to start an organization that worked with White people; the White Arabs.

    Not to mention a good among of the 'Palestinians' are not direct descendents but migrant workers to come from Arab countries like Jordan, Iran and Iraq. Still I know that's no excuse for the Israel to slaughter them like that. But I have to ask myself why would people pour into such a small area knowing at anytime that they could be blown to bits by Israel? i think these Migrant workers are being used for political reasons.

    http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/whopals.html


    Who are the Palestinians?

    Around 1900, less than 100,000 people lived in what is called "the West Bank" with a significant Jewish population [1] The "native" population of Gaza numbered only 80,000 in 1951.[2]
    The "Palestinians" (actually a collection of migrant workers) have streamed into the West Bank and Gaza from Iraq, Kuwait, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt.

    The "Palestinians" are only part of the larger problem of stateless, citizenshipless people in the Middle East. There are millions of mixed ethnic background, including Kurds, Hindus and others, that migrate throughout the Middle East. In the case of the "Palestinians" an ill-defined subgroup of this migrant population has been given a name and "history" and is being used as a tool against Israel.

    Over 250 small Arab settlements have been founded in the West Bank since 1950. Anyone who has visited the West Bank knows that the housing in these Arab settlements is cinder-block and poured concrete - testimony to their recent construction. The Israeli government admits that it has allowed over 240,000 day workers to enter the West Bank through the border with Jordan since Olso - only to have them stay in the West Bank as Arab settlers. The actual numbers are probably higher.

    If hundreds of thousands of Middle Eastern migrant workers are flooding into the West Bank & Gaza, why should Israel be required to provide them jobs? In fact the reverse, by supporting their economy while these people refuse (or are prevented) from accepting Israeli or Jordanian citizenship, Israel is only attracting more migrant works. Kuwait and Saudia Arabia in the last year expelled over 1,000,000 citizenless migrant workers
  • Chef_Taylor
    Chef_Taylor Members Posts: 26,584 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Historically who has stood by blacks?

    Who stood with us through the thick of things?

    Who were our strongest allies ever?


  • janklow
    janklow Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    As far as Gaddafi, he was a public supporter of the freedom for South Africa under apartheid-
    along with millions of other people, so this gets a big fat "whatever"
    -and showed plenty of love to Africans who were fighting against European colonialism back in the 50s up to the 80s. He gave weapons and aid to African nations who fought against it, so Gaddafi always gets some cool points from me on that. He could've turned into a sellout with all the money he had but he instead used his influence to fight against colonialism, even in sub-Saharan Africa.
    so fundamentally, this comes down to "i cosign terrorism supported by Gaddafi?"

    but that aside, he WAS a sell-out. supporting people fighting for freedom from oppression while simultaneously maintaining a dictatorship in your own country? sounds much more like hypocrisy than a sincere devotion to freedom.

  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Members Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2014
    janklow wrote: »
    As far as Gaddafi, he was a public supporter of the freedom for South Africa under apartheid-
    along with millions of other people, so this gets a big fat "whatever"
    -and showed plenty of love to Africans who were fighting against European colonialism back in the 50s up to the 80s. He gave weapons and aid to African nations who fought against it, so Gaddafi always gets some cool points from me on that. He could've turned into a sellout with all the money he had but he instead used his influence to fight against colonialism, even in sub-Saharan Africa.
    so fundamentally, this comes down to "i cosign terrorism supported by Gaddafi?"

    but that aside, he WAS a sell-out. supporting people fighting for freedom from oppression while simultaneously maintaining a dictatorship in your own country? sounds much more like hypocrisy than a sincere devotion to freedom.

    Gaddafi was giving weapons and aid to those who were FIGHTING colonialism and injustice, I hardly consider that spreading terrorism. I don't co-sign Gaddafi's oppression of his own people but I'm speaking for now entirely on Gaddafi being willing to aid rebel groups all over sub-Saharan Africa who were fighting evil oppression from the Germans, French and British. If anything, Gaddafi was fighting AGAINST terrorism by doing that. The Germans and other colonialist groups were the TRUE terrorist groups.

    As I consider Israel to be a borderline-terrorist nation, one can argue it already is one.

  • janklow
    janklow Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    Gaddafi was giving weapons and aid to those who were FIGHTING colonialism and injustice, I hardly consider that spreading terrorism.
    there's always a methodology debate. besides, are you will to cosign EVERYONE that Gaddafi gave weapons and aid to without reservation?
    I don't co-sign Gaddafi's oppression of his own people but I'm speaking for now entirely on Gaddafi being willing to aid rebel groups all over sub-Saharan Africa who were fighting evil oppression from the Germans, French and British.
    sorry, but this is completely ? . you're praising a guy for using his (ill-gotten) wealth to fight oppression while requesting the right to ignore his at-home oppression.

    frankly, you could easily make the case that Gaddafi primarily had a responsibility to free Libyans from oppression FIRST, and he betrayed them on that score. and i think you're also the poster who argues that nations should not meddle overseas if they don't have their domestic situations in order...
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Members Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2014
    janklow wrote: »
    Gaddafi was giving weapons and aid to those who were FIGHTING colonialism and injustice, I hardly consider that spreading terrorism.
    there's always a methodology debate. besides, are you will to cosign EVERYONE that Gaddafi gave weapons and aid to without reservation?
    I don't co-sign Gaddafi's oppression of his own people but I'm speaking for now entirely on Gaddafi being willing to aid rebel groups all over sub-Saharan Africa who were fighting evil oppression from the Germans, French and British.
    sorry, but this is completely ? . you're praising a guy for using his (ill-gotten) wealth to fight oppression while requesting the right to ignore his at-home oppression.

    frankly, you could easily make the case that Gaddafi primarily had a responsibility to free Libyans from oppression FIRST, and he betrayed them on that score. and i think you're also the poster who argues that nations should not meddle overseas if they don't have their domestic situations in order...

    Ok I don't support everyone Gaddafi gave weapons to but for the most part, he gave rebel groups in AFRICA who badly needed freedom from the colonial powers of the time. I don't condone how he treated his people or even his enemies, of course but he did have a lot of support from them for a very long time. It was around 2011, when the Arab Spring was coming around and people wanted him out (or some did, depending who you ask). Was Gaddafi perfect, of course not but let's not act like Gaddafi didn't do ANYTHING good for his people. He gave many of them free healthcare and according to reports I saw, free housing or very cheap housing for most of the population, same thing NK does.

    And as far as nations supporting other nations with weapons and aid, I don't mind it if nations are helping to fighting against oppression or if the nation isn't known for causing too much problems for the world. Nothing wrong with aiding anti-colonial rebel groups either, the African Union loved Gaddafi or at least liked a lot of the aid he gave them.
  • janklow
    janklow Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    Ok I don't support everyone Gaddafi gave weapons to but for the most part, he gave rebel groups in AFRICA who badly needed freedom from the colonial powers of the time.
    going to be honest: i'm not sure that IS where most of his largesse went, and i'm not sure it was really about freedom from colonialism at many points in his goods-dispensing career.
    I don't condone how he treated his people or even his enemies, of course but he did have a lot of support from them for a very long time. It was around 2011, when the Arab Spring was coming around and people wanted him out (or some did, depending who you ask).
    sounds a lot like condoning. and people wanted him out prior to the Arab Spring. but regardless, how are you going to call yourself a freedom fighter while running your country like a dictator? it's better because you're not from Europe.
    Was Gaddafi perfect, of course not but let's not act like Gaddafi didn't do ANYTHING good for his people. He gave many of them free healthcare and according to reports I saw, free housing or very cheap housing for most of the population, same thing NK does.
    THE SAME THING NK DOES.
    i don't think i have to actually say anything else.
    And as far as nations supporting other nations with weapons and aid, I don't mind it if nations are helping to fighting against oppression or if the nation isn't known for causing too much problems for the world. Nothing wrong with aiding anti-colonial rebel groups either, the African Union loved Gaddafi or at least liked a lot of the aid he gave them.
    Libya was, however, known for causing problems around the world. so now you're pulling kind of a hypocritical move and saying, "well, international meddling is totally fine IF it stays below an arbitrary line i cannot define."