Why do people show so much hesitancy to rank current players above past legends?
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king papichulo
Members Posts: 296
Whenever we talk about how current players level up to the all-time greats, a lot of fans show the hesitancy to rank the current great players and future HOFs ahead of past legends. In fact, some people get so offended, they regard it as a SIN whenever a current player is regarded to be higher or even better than a past player.
For example, in the NBA to this day, some people feel that guys like Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Dr. J and Moses are still ahead of guys like Kobe, Shaq and Duncan in the all-time greatest list. And In the NFL some people still feel that Unitas, Elway, Marino, Montana are better than guys like Manning & Brady. In MLB, people still feel that guys like Mays, Ruth, Mantle, Willams are better than guys like A-Rod, Pujols, Ramirez, Bonds, etc.
Whenever someone tries to make a case for a current player to be above a past player, there is always some commotion and raucous, and the word "homerism" or "noobie" is thrown around. But what some of those past-supporters don't understand that yes, there is a possibility that a current great player can indeed be better than a past great player.
And when someone currently is compared to some of the all-time greats and legends of the past, there was a huge commotion and analysts and fans go crazy and think it was absurd.
So I ask is, why do analysts, and us fans in general, show so much hesitancy to rank a current future HOF great ahead of a past great player?
Thoughts.
For example, in the NBA to this day, some people feel that guys like Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Dr. J and Moses are still ahead of guys like Kobe, Shaq and Duncan in the all-time greatest list. And In the NFL some people still feel that Unitas, Elway, Marino, Montana are better than guys like Manning & Brady. In MLB, people still feel that guys like Mays, Ruth, Mantle, Willams are better than guys like A-Rod, Pujols, Ramirez, Bonds, etc.
Whenever someone tries to make a case for a current player to be above a past player, there is always some commotion and raucous, and the word "homerism" or "noobie" is thrown around. But what some of those past-supporters don't understand that yes, there is a possibility that a current great player can indeed be better than a past great player.
And when someone currently is compared to some of the all-time greats and legends of the past, there was a huge commotion and analysts and fans go crazy and think it was absurd.
So I ask is, why do analysts, and us fans in general, show so much hesitancy to rank a current future HOF great ahead of a past great player?
Thoughts.
Comments
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Of course. How can you compare a legendary players COMPLETE body of work to somebody that's in their late 20s or early 30s and still has lot of winning(or losing) to do?? Plus there have been so many players who have fallen off HARD in their last 3 or 4 years in the league so you never know what their body of work will be.
Even Jordan made that mistake. When the Magic beat the Bulls back in the day (the year he came back with the #45) Jordan said Penny Hardaway would take his torch someday as the new dominant player in the league. Nuff said. -
Consistency is key when comparing all time greats to the current top players....the only acceptable way imo to compare all time greats to current players is to break down their individual talents and compare, ud be hardpressed to confidently say that Chris Paul is better than Isaiah Thomas even though Chris Paul talent wise is better....u just can't ignore the rings and the fact that Zeke was a beast as well
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If a guy is 60 years old and watched Jim brown play he can weigh in and say emmit smith,walter payton,barry sanders are or are not better cuz he saw all of them
Most people are attached to they generation/era they came up in thats why you have these arguments in rap,sports,politics etc -
I don't have a problem with somebody saying Kobe is one of the all time greats or that manning or brady is an all time great. But to compare them to those who have retired and they've yet to complete their own career is ridiculous. It's the entire body of work that has to be looked at. No one is going to tell me that Lebron is a better all time basketball palyer then Kareem or Wilt and he's only been in the league for seven years and these other two have rings and have retired. He's not done yet so his complete career should only be put up in comparison to those types when he's finished with the game.
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king papichulo wrote: »
For example, in the NBA to this day, some people feel that guys like Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Dr. J and Moses are still ahead of guys like Kobe, Shaq and Duncan in the all-time greatest list. And In the NFL some people still feel that Unitas, Elway, Marino, Montana are better than guys like Manning & Brady. In MLB, people still feel that guys like Mays, Ruth, Mantle, Willams are better than guys like A-Rod, Pujols, Ramirez, Bonds, etc.
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hakeem was da ? . He isnt really that old. He was winning championships in the 90s. That ? was UNSTOPPABLE a few years. -
Tommy Billfiger wrote: »If a guy is 60 years old and watched Jim brown play he can weigh in and say emmit smith,walter payton,barry sanders are or are not better cuz he saw all of them
Most people are attached to they generation/era they came up in thats why you have these arguments in rap,sports,politics etc
For that Very Reason right there.
Baseball is the Worst , they swear up and down players in the 1870's and 1920's are some of the greatest players ever , when damn near all the pitchers stuggled to even ? 80- 85 MPH, they just threw the ball, didnt even have a Arsenal of pitches anywhere close to what pitchers have in todays game , and if u started the game u finished the game 98 % of the time during then, u could be getting shelled and u would still have the same pitcher in there
MLB swear up and down Players like Honus Wagner who played from 1897 to 1917 is the best of all time shortstop , they were great for there time but lets be real about it them dudes couldnt compete with these athletes now a days and would barely even make a roster or be life time Minor league players...it's not even physically possible for them to compete with todays athletes..
Baseball is probably the worst at it , everytime they have a Position rank for all-time players they always have 3 or 4 guys in the top 10 who played in the Dinosaur age and throw out there stats as if they could hang with todays players... -
me and my friend were going through top 5 all time at every position, he brang up cousy at point guard and im a boston fan but i dont think that one handed dribbling ? will cut it in todays game, he was the best in his time but he wouldnt cut it in todays game, centers is the easiest list with russell, wilt, shaq, keem and kareem
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KeepOnPushing wrote: »For that Very Reason right there.
Baseball is the Worst , they swear up and down players in the 1870's and 1920's are some of the greatest players ever , when damn near all the pitchers stuggled to even ? 80- 85 MPH, they just threw the ball, didnt even have a Arsenal of pitches anywhere close to what pitchers have in todays game , and if u started the game u finished the game 98 % of the time during then, u could be getting shelled and u would still have the same pitcher in there
MLB swear up and down Players like Honus Wagner who played from 1897 to 1917 is the best of all time shortstop , they were great for there time but lets be real about it them dudes couldnt compete with these athletes now a days and would barely even make a roster or be life time Minor league players...it's not even physically possible for them to compete with todays athletes..
Baseball is probably the worst at it , everytime they have a Position rank for all-time players they always have 3 or 4 guys in the top 10 who played in the Dinosaur age and throw out there stats as if they could hang with todays players...
c/s about the baseball ? ... not to mention that the alleged GOAT baseball player, Babe Ruth, played during when Blacks, Latinos and Asians couldn't play which, IMO, renders their 'records' garbage. Baseball analysts romanticize the pre-modern era as a bunch of dudes whose talent could stand up to today's players, when I'm pretty sure that Barry Bonds, A-Rod, Ryan Howard, Josh Hamilton, etc would hit a Ty Cobb pitch about 900ft -
its over: 2012! wrote: »Did you forget? Most of those legendary players you list, from yesteryears, didn't get stamped with legendary status during the prime of their playing years...they are usually only called, future HOF'ers then.
Because it takes years, after they're done playing, for gauging if 90% of any Time's current players to be unable to reach the plateau of those legendary results.
So in fairness, players playing today need to fairly wait another 15-20 years to make sure their output isn't outdone or surpassed...before they can be called legends.
However there are players that transcend the game, and those players get that LEGEND stamp before that 10-15 year period. Again Jordan is that guy. After he won 3 Chips in a row, the 1st time, he was considered an All-Time Great, when they won the 2nd set of 3 Rings... it was over, legendary status was cemented. In Baseball you had Barry Bonds and Ken Griffy Jr., both of whom were just unreal at their positions in the field and at the plate. During his prime in Seattle, everyone considered Griffy to be the GOAT CF, even after injuries ravaged his career people still look to those days when he was climbing walls, robbing HRs and putting up 50 HRs a season... GOAT status. Bonds the same thing... 300 hitter who consistently hit 30+ HRs BEFORE the cloud of roids. So you can have players that don't need that obligatory time to get Legend status, but for most current players, it needs to marinate a bit. -
c/s about the baseball ? ... not to mention that the alleged GOAT baseball player, Babe Ruth, played during when Blacks, Latinos and Asians couldn't play which, IMO, renders their 'records' garbage. Baseball analysts romanticize the pre-modern era as a bunch of dudes whose talent could stand up to today's players, when I'm pretty sure that Barry Bonds, A-Rod, Ryan Howard, Josh Hamilton, etc would hit a Ty Cobb pitch about 900ft
Co-Sign ,except the part about Ty Cobb cuz he was a Centerfielder lol , But it's not a knock on them it's just pure truth , They were great for their time , they couldnt help when they were born or pick what year, but the fact is those dudes couldnt even get a jersey in pro baseball right now..
Like i was watching on Prime 9 the other day they were ranking Players All-Time at each position and they had Honus Wagner ahead of dudes like A-Rod who came in at 2nd Place , had Jeter Ranked at 7th and Barry Larkin at 8th ...
i Still Consider A-Rod a Shortstop cuz he spent 9 years at the position , but dudes like A-Rod,Jeter,Barry Larkin would have been Hitting .400 + every year in that era , Hell Ozzie Smith is a Career .262 hitter he would have been hitting .300 plus ,i could go on and on
they werent facing nothing back in those days pitching wise, and the defensive players had NO range at there positions compared to how many hits get take'n away on defense now, back then players Gloves was lookin like a damn oven mit and they try to compare those Ancient ass players to today players or say there better when it aint even comparable.....
Yea put Josh Hamilton , Ken Griffey Jr, A-Rod , in that ERA ....they would hit .400 + with 200 RBI's and 70 + HR's , 70 + SB's every year damn near.
you can take a Average player in todays game and he would dominate in that ERA...times have changed and the Athletes and Skill sets of players have changed, u cant compare someone from the damn 1800's and early 1900's to todays athletes , that person is delusional if they do that. -
To Think Guys Like Bob Cousy who pretty much dribbled with One hand wouldnt get constantly Ripped by someone like Derrick Rose,Cp3 or D-Will mean icmon now , those guys are too quick,too fast and too athletic to sit there and watch a dude dribble with one hand all the time, and u dont think they would fly right by him when he's on Defense??...
I pay respect to the careers that Cousy had and im sure he influence many basketball players over his time and im not trying to ? on the dude cuz he's a all-time great but ...you can throw his great stats out there all u want but who could he realistically guard in todays game ? or dominate on offense with dribbling one handed?
a 6-1 PG who not only dribbled with Majority One hand , he also shot 30% FG' wise ....that ? aint even acceptable in todays game...dude didnt even have not one season where he cracked 40% as a shooter, every season he shot in the 30's ...all of us know for a fact if u shoot like that u not crackin no starting lineup year in and year out.
if im wrong for thinking that way then cool im down for a debate , but thats just my honest opinion. -
I honestly think if Barry Bonds played in the babe ruth era he would of hit .600 60+ Hr's every year and 170 Rbi's wit a .850-1000 OB%
And bob cousy would get exposed in todays era he wouldnt be able to stick no pg's in the todays nba not even steve blake -
Tommy Billfiger wrote: »I honestly think if Barry Bonds played in the babe ruth era he would of hit .600 60+ Hr's every year and 170 Rbi's wit a .850-1000 OB%
And bob cousy would get exposed in todays era he wouldnt be able to stick no pg's in the todays nba not even steve blake
A lot of Power hitters in todays Game would have had a 80 + homerun season with 200 + RBI's back then.....
i think people take it the wrong way and it comes off as our ERA trying to say the old ERA's aint ? , i think we all pay respect to the game as fans and realize they were great but we just being realistic with it, and they take it out of context. -
i just fail to believe that Players who current average 16 or 17 ppg in todays NBA game couldnt average 25 + ppg in the 1930's - 1950's
Lamar Odom is no where near a Hall of Fame caliber player but who could have realistically guarded him in those days?? dude is 6'10 grew up as a PG ,Played PG in college now plays Forward and some Center and still can handle the Rock like a wing player
u cant tell me Lamar Odom couldnt get to the Rim anytime he wanted to if he was playing back in those ERA's.....
Look how many 6'8 and 6'9 players there are in todays game that look average and that are superior athletic, ya'll mean to tell me they wouldnt have Dominated back then??
Wilson Chandler who's 6'8 230 and a 15 - 17 ppg player u mean to tell me he wouldnt have been Beasting putting up Hall of Fame numbers against Dudes like this ?
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KeepOnPushing wrote: »i just fail to believe that Players who current average 16 or 17 ppg in todays NBA game couldnt average 25 + ppg in the 1930's - 1950's
Lamar Odom is no where near a Hall of Fame caliber player but who could have realistically guarded him in those days?? dude is 6'10 grew up as a PG ,Played PG in college now plays Forward and some Center and still can handle the Rock like a wing player
u cant tell me Lamar Odom couldnt get to the Rim anytime he wanted to if he was playing back in those ERA's.....
Look how many 6'8 and 6'9 players there are in todays game that look average and that are superior athletic, ya'll mean to tell me they wouldnt have Dominated back then??
Wilson Chandler who's 6'8 230 and a 15 - 17 ppg player u mean to tell me he wouldnt have been Beasting putting up Hall of Fame numbers against Dudes like this ?
lmfao.... ? I woulda got buckets on them ? back then, no joke-o -
KeepOnPushing wrote: »For that Very Reason right there.
Baseball is the Worst , they swear up and down players in the 1870's and 1920's are some of the greatest players ever , when damn near all the pitchers stuggled to even ? 80- 85 MPH, they just threw the ball, didnt even have a Arsenal of pitches anywhere close to what pitchers have in todays game , and if u started the game u finished the game 98 % of the time during then, u could be getting shelled and u would still have the same pitcher in there
MLB swear up and down Players like Honus Wagner who played from 1897 to 1917 is the best of all time shortstop , they were great for there time but lets be real about it them dudes couldnt compete with these athletes now a days and would barely even make a roster or be life time Minor league players...it's not even physically possible for them to compete with todays athletes..
Baseball is probably the worst at it , everytime they have a Position rank for all-time players they always have 3 or 4 guys in the top 10 who played in the Dinosaur age and throw out there stats as if they could hang with todays players...
The same way you say Wagner couldn't have kept up with today's players, I can argue that today's players couldn't keep up wit Wagner in his era.
PED's, steroids in the food you eat, hi tech workout regimens...you can't punish the old timers because of evolution. You look at somebody like Ty Cobb or Honus Wagner and how they DOMINATED their era, and you rank them accordingly.
If Honus Wagner was alive today with this technology, who are you to say he couldn't compete? Who are you to say Ryan Howard would have been able to compete back then without the fitness and strength knowledge we have today?
Top 5 lists are all subjective, but for you to disregard a player because he was born before your era is ludicrous. -
Things are differant now. Before players were on a team and had a job. Players now are better but when past players played they were the greatest thing out. Bill Russel was 6- 11 220 ofcourse he would get pushed around now but when he played he dominated Kwame Brown is bigger and stronger and only plays ball anc couldn't touch him
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king papichulo wrote: »The same way you say Wagner couldn't have kept up with today's players, I can argue that today's players couldn't keep up wit Wagner in his era.
PED's, steroids in the food you eat, hi tech workout regimens...you can't punish the old timers because of evolution. You look at somebody like Ty Cobb or Honus Wagner and how they DOMINATED their era, and you rank them accordingly.
If Honus Wagner was alive today with this technology, who are you to say he couldn't compete? Who are you to say Ryan Howard would have been able to compete back then without the fitness and strength knowledge we have today?
Top 5 lists are all subjective, but for you to disregard a player because he was born before your era is ludicrous.
I was just about to say that. You can't compare guys of today to the old greats. Different eras. It's like comparing a NES Nintendo to a Playstation 3. You have to keep things in perspective. -
perspective people, perspective........
