Serious Question About The Four Elements, Longevity And Being a Pioneer In Hip Hop
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in The Reason
This is inspired by the NWA/Gene Simmons thread.
In the other thread people were going back and forth about if Hip Hop is Rock and if it is, should it be respected as such. I didn't want to change the topic so I made this thread.
1. Whether or not Hip Hop = Rock is debatable. Generally Rock music is made with traditional instruments (drums, bass, guitar, synthesizers/keyboards, etc.) While Illmatic is composed entirely of samples from other people's music. I doubt if one instrument was played in the making of Illmatic.
2. Whether or not Hip Hop = Music is also subject for debate. True "music" aficionados maintain that Music is melody, harmony and rhythm (Jazz musician Charlie Parker made that statement in an interview). Music has certain elements and/or qualities that it has to satisfy to be considered as such. For example, some argue that Baby Got Back isn't music and lump it in the same category as Hip Hop.
3. Whether or not Illmatic and Baby Got Back are Rock and/or Music is subject for debate. Perhaps we should say Illmatic and Baby Got Back are Hip Hop, but not rock nor music.
4. Lastly, I think everybody on this message board would agree that James Brown, Marvin Gaye, Parliament, The Isley Brothers, Kool and the Gang, Miles Davis, Curtis Mayfield, Isaac Hayes, Michael Jackson and Prince are the foundation of what we call Hip Hop, that it, they made the music that Hip Hop producers sample from. However, if you ask the IC who should be the first round of inductees into a "Hip Hop Hall of Fame" people will say 2Pac, Nas, Jay Z and Biggie. A few people will say Rakim or KRS One. But besides myself, people never mention Grandmaster Flash and the Furious 5, Kurtis Blow, Treacherous Three, Cold Crush Brothers, Funky 4+1, Spoonie G and all of the real Hip Hop legends. So I guess my question is; why do people have so much respect for James Brown and Marvin Gaye but those same people have so little respect for The Treacherous Three or Spoonie G?
In the other thread people were going back and forth about if Hip Hop is Rock and if it is, should it be respected as such. I didn't want to change the topic so I made this thread.
1. Whether or not Hip Hop = Rock is debatable. Generally Rock music is made with traditional instruments (drums, bass, guitar, synthesizers/keyboards, etc.) While Illmatic is composed entirely of samples from other people's music. I doubt if one instrument was played in the making of Illmatic.
2. Whether or not Hip Hop = Music is also subject for debate. True "music" aficionados maintain that Music is melody, harmony and rhythm (Jazz musician Charlie Parker made that statement in an interview). Music has certain elements and/or qualities that it has to satisfy to be considered as such. For example, some argue that Baby Got Back isn't music and lump it in the same category as Hip Hop.
3. Whether or not Illmatic and Baby Got Back are Rock and/or Music is subject for debate. Perhaps we should say Illmatic and Baby Got Back are Hip Hop, but not rock nor music.
4. Lastly, I think everybody on this message board would agree that James Brown, Marvin Gaye, Parliament, The Isley Brothers, Kool and the Gang, Miles Davis, Curtis Mayfield, Isaac Hayes, Michael Jackson and Prince are the foundation of what we call Hip Hop, that it, they made the music that Hip Hop producers sample from. However, if you ask the IC who should be the first round of inductees into a "Hip Hop Hall of Fame" people will say 2Pac, Nas, Jay Z and Biggie. A few people will say Rakim or KRS One. But besides myself, people never mention Grandmaster Flash and the Furious 5, Kurtis Blow, Treacherous Three, Cold Crush Brothers, Funky 4+1, Spoonie G and all of the real Hip Hop legends. So I guess my question is; why do people have so much respect for James Brown and Marvin Gaye but those same people have so little respect for The Treacherous Three or Spoonie G?
Comments
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The Treacherous Three and Spoonie G dont have a "Say It Loud", "Mans World", "Heard It Through The Grapevine", or "Lets Get It On". Simple as that.
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1. Whether or not Hip Hop = Rock is debatable. Generally Rock music is made with traditional instruments (drums, bass, guitar, synthesizers/keyboards, etc.) While Illmatic is composed entirely of samples from other people's music. I doubt if one instrument was played in the making of Illmatic
Nas pops Olu played the cornet at the end of Lifes A ? -
Olu Dara played the trumpet on "Life's a ? "...
Drum machine, sampler & turntable don't count? They might not be conventional but I would classify them as instruments...
Not trying to throw shade but did you really ask why the Treacherous 3 is not as respected as James Brown or Marvin Gaye?...
I think that's self explanatory... -
OK so Nas's pops played at the end of Life's A ? . But generally speaking, Hip Hop can't be reproduced in the same manner as "rock" meaning, a song that was recorded with drums, bass, guitar and keyboards can easily be reproduced on stage with the same instruments. Whereas 'most' Hip Hop records are made with samplers. Many Hip Hop producers don't play an instrument.
Here's the song from which Life's a ? is sampled. Its clearly a sample, the only thing missing is AZ and Nas's verses and the cornet solo at the end of the record;
Yearning For Your Love - The Gap Band
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1eiAPKfAVY
How is Life's a ? "rock"? and/or does it belong in the "Rock N Roll Hall Of Fame" or does Gene Simmons have a point?
For that matter, how is Life's a ? "music"?
Is it possible that Hip Hop isn't music?
As far as the Treacherous Three and Spoonie G are concerned, I'd bet that most of the people on the IC can't even name a song by either one of them.
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If music= melody, harmony and rhythm...how can hiphop not be music?
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James Brown, Marvin and them all made timeless music. Kurtis blow, spoonie g ect. All deserve their props but their ? sound dated as ?
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lordstanley wrote: »If music= melody, harmony and rhythm...how can hiphop not be music?
As much as I love Hip Hop, I want you to listen to Sucker MCs and be totally honest; Is there melody, harmony and rhythm?
Sucker MCs - Run DMC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXVFNs0piP8
There's definitely rhythm in the form of the drumbeat and the way the MCs are flowing over the beat, but there's no melody or harmony.
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Let's just pretend The Roots don't exist then lol...
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Let's just pretend The Roots don't exist then lol...
C'mon, don't play dumb.
You know The Roots are an exception to the rule. -
A melody is "a linear succession of notes that the listener percieves as one entity"..so, basically, a rap verse is a melody
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Harmony means a combination of sounds..like the beat with vocals or even just overdubbed vocals falls into that category. So yeah, hip hop is music by that definition
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Ignorant ? smh, a drum machine is an instrument.
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The irony of Charlie Parker making that statement when he is credited for breaking the rules of music and reconstructing the format of jazz as we know it. As far as rap being a legitimate genre of music aside from being an element of hip hop, like other genres rap had to grow to what it is today. Jazz and blues went from a few public domain songs being played by one or two instruments to entire 20 minute long pieces played by bands and orchestras. Rock went from "tutti frutti" and critics downplaying it as a bastardized version of gospel and blues, to the Beatles (the first mainstream artists to sample), Pink Floyd, Jim Hendrix and those type of artists completely changing the soundscape of modern society beyond music. Rap as a music form is in the same vein, and it's only 40+ years old. Sampling is accepted across all genres from EDM to country, so to write off rap as just some subculture stunts the growth of music and sound that it can actually stimulate.
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Gene Simmons is right about hip hop being in the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. i don't disagree with that. however, the whole hip hop isn't real music is an outdated argument that gets disproven by hip hop acts like "the roots."
yes a drum machine is an instrument. but even more important than that, the sampler is an instrument as well. the limitations of a sampler to make something like illmatic is mindblowing. it's very innovative, if anything, the pioneers are the people who were sampling.
who was flipping samples like the stuff on illlmatic prior to illmatic. i know pete rock and premo weren't the only ones. that's innovation like no one prior. (marley marl?)
a real hardware sampler is an instrument though. like it takes time to learn how to play a guitar and you gotta learn how to pluck the strings and strum right and the fingerings and chords. being able to be a sampler like the pioneers takes time.
a rock n roll artist can say that no one in hip hop can play a guitar like Jeff Beck. and a hip hop artist can say no one can flip a sample like Jay Dee.
and as far as the hip hop hall of fame. just make it regional and by style as far as "electronic" vs "traditional" hip hop as a whole's foundation is taking the old and mixing it with the new. you can't help but pay homage or appreciate music of the past.
"rappers delight," "back that ass up," "i wanna rock and roll all night," "paradise city" different songs from different genres saying the same thing. but homie on "hustle and flow" already told us all that. -
Gene Simmons is right about hip hop being in the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. i don't disagree with that. however, the whole hip hop isn't real music is an outdated argument that gets disproven by hip hop acts like "the roots."
yes a drum machine is an instrument. but even more important than that, the sampler is an instrument as well. the limitations of a sampler to make something like illmatic is mindblowing. it's very innovative, if anything, the pioneers are the people who were sampling.
who was flipping samples like the stuff on illlmatic prior to illmatic. i know pete rock and premo weren't the only ones. that's innovation like no one prior. (marley marl?)
a real hardware sampler is an instrument though. like it takes time to learn how to play a guitar and you gotta learn how to pluck the strings and strum right and the fingerings and chords. being able to be a sampler like the pioneers takes time.
a rock n roll artist can say that no one in hip hop can play a guitar like Jeff Beck. and a hip hop artist can say no one can flip a sample like Jay Dee.
and as far as the hip hop hall of fame. just make it regional and by style as far as "electronic" vs "traditional" hip hop as a whole's foundation is taking the old and mixing it with the new. you can't help but pay homage or appreciate music of the past.
"rappers delight," "back that ass up," "i wanna rock and roll all night," "paradise city" different songs from different genres saying the same thing. but homie on "hustle and flow" already told us all that.
I think people are arguing that "Hip Hop is Music" out of passion rather than looking at it objectively. Clearly a drum machine is not an instrument. I play the drums, there's form and rhythm and you have to hold the drum sticks a certain way and you have to set the drums up a certain way, its not something you can just walk up to a drum set and start playing. Some people take lessons and they still can't play the drums. So I have to reject your argument that the drum machine is an instrument.
Also, with a drum machine you can program the kick drum, then program the hi hats, then program the snare drum. You don't have to play the drum beat all in one take.
Likewise, a sampler is NOT an instrument. Its a computer. You can take 2 bars from your favorite record like, say, Dear Mama
In All My Wildest Dreams - Joe Sample
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1U-POvvZzY
^^^ I think that there's some keyboards being played on top of the sample but there are thousands (if not millions) of rap songs where the original song is simply looped on a sampler/computer and the rapper just raps over the sample with no harmony between the rappers voice and the melody of the sample. (Thats not to say I don't enjoy listening to it but its not "music" in the traditional sense of say, Duke Ellington or James Brown)
Also, people are cherry picking examples. Like; "look at The Roots, they play instruments!!!" No ? Sherlock but The Roots are an exception to the thousands of rap groups that don't play instruments so let's not play "what about The Roots" game. -
Unless you invent an instrument, you can't play a note that hasn't been heard before. You can, however, play your interpretation of those notes. I view sampling in the same light.
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wAXed_poetic wrote: »Unless you invent an instrument, you can't play a note that hasn't been heard before. You can, however, play your interpretation of those notes. I view sampling in the same light.
Really? So you think that Dear Mama sample I posted is the same as a band playing instruments?
I understand your passion, but be objective. A sample/sampling producer isn't the same as a band playing instruments.
If "a band playing instruments" is what defines rock, then Hip Hop isn't rock, its something else.
Arguing that a sampling producer is the same as a band playing instruments is like arguing that a photographer does the same thing as a painter because both of their works can be framed and hung up on a wall. Clearly a painter and a photographer don't do the same thing. -
Sampling music and chopping music is a skill imo. You have to have an ear for melody and composing music. I'm pretty sure most of the heavy samplers in rap (Dilla, Premo, Madlib,etc) could be thought how to play instruments and they would understand how to compose it.
James Brown, Isley Bros, etc have a ? ton of hits and decades of ''relevancy". You cannot compare our hip-hop forefathers to those dudes. Not to mention James Brown, Isleys,etc sound evolved over the years to where it didn't sound dated. I can't say thee same for most of our forefathers. Most of them dudes are still using that old ass 80s flow. -
Hip hop ain't music?
https://youtu.be/l4E4XC7qOfk
https://youtu.be/Tbs7wWLXLpw
https://youtu.be/6Z5GwrrhQ4U
And let's not act like rock music is all original because it isn't. Numerous rock bands have stolen music from chuck berry, muddy waters, ray charles, and many others. Rock music was built on thievery black music, and to say hip hop isn't music is a great disrespect to those who's music made others famous. -
Samplers can edit an old sound & make it sound new...them old singers back in the days were singing the same records with no type of edit....just who can sing it better.....so music in general is reeking with unoriginality if you want to be technical.
But in terms of your question, I respect the hip hop that came before my time....I understand that they paved the way for what we have today & they deserve some respect -
The main issue here is, Black Music and culture is always ? on by whites, then ignorant Blacks follow suit. Followed by whites stealing and fronting like they are creators and innovators.
Gene Simmons has no point, and is mildly talented himself. In fact Kiss is GARBAGE musically, and are\were nothing but a gimmick, campy ass hair band.
Hip Hop music since it's creation has involved live instruments and musicians. For ignorant Hip Hop bystanders do your homework. Yall disgust me really.
Teddy Riley produced for Kool Moe dee.
Larry Smith produced for Whodini and Run DMC
Stetsasonic "The original Hip Hop Band"
Nile Rodgers playing bass.
Sugar Hill records had an in house Band.
I could continue but why. Most of yall will continue believing what yall want anyways or arguing some ? non point. -
Sampling music and chopping music is a skill imo. You have to have an ear for melody and composing music. I'm pretty sure most of the heavy samplers in rap (Dilla, Premo, Madlib,etc) could be thought how to play instruments and they would understand how to compose it.
James Brown, Isley Bros, etc have a ? ton of hits and decades of ''relevancy". You cannot compare our hip-hop forefathers to those dudes. Not to mention James Brown, Isleys,etc sound evolved over the years to where it didn't sound dated. I can't say thee same for most of our forefathers. Most of them dudes are still using that old ass 80s flow.
I'm not denying that sampling requires skill. Nor am I denying that you have to "have an ear for music".
What I'm saying is that if you take the traditional definition for the word/concept "music". Many Hip Hop acts, groups and songs don't fit the definition.
Now my point can easily be disproven by cherry picking certain songs that are musical. But let's not cherry pick, let's look at Hip Hop as a whole. For example, look at these albums;
1. Illmatic
2. It Takes A Nation of Millions To Hold Us Back
3. Me Against The World
4. Ready To Die
5. Paid In Full
6. Ghetto D
7. Blueprint
8. Trap Musik
9. Straight Outta Compton
10. GKMC
^^^ I think thats a pretty good representation of what Hip Hop is. Or stated another way, I think we can all agree that, collectively, those albums represent the spirit of Hip Hop.
The thing that stands out the most is that these albums aren't necessarily in key, meaning, the producers had no regard for traditional music theory (maybe thats what we like about it). Also, the lyrics of these albums aren't in harmony with the melody of the music (samples).
While I agree that Hip Hop is enjoyable to listen to, I'm not convinced that it fits the description of the word "music". That isn't necessarily a good or bad thing, it just is what it is.
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Sampling music and chopping music is a skill imo. You have to have an ear for melody and composing music. I'm pretty sure most of the heavy samplers in rap (Dilla, Premo, Madlib,etc) could be thought how to play instruments and they would understand how to compose it.
James Brown, Isley Bros, etc have a ? ton of hits and decades of ''relevancy". You cannot compare our hip-hop forefathers to those dudes. Not to mention James Brown, Isleys,etc sound evolved over the years to where it didn't sound dated. I can't say thee same for most of our forefathers. Most of them dudes are still using that old ass 80s flow.
I'm not denying that sampling requires skill. Nor am I denying that you have to "have an ear for music".
What I'm saying is that if you take the traditional definition for the word/concept "music". Many Hip Hop acts, groups and songs don't fit the definition.
Now my point can easily be disproven by cherry picking certain songs that are musical. But let's not cherry pick, let's look at Hip Hop as a whole. For example, look at these albums;
1. Illmatic
2. It Takes A Nation of Millions To Hold Us Back
3. Me Against The World
4. Ready To Die
5. Paid In Full
6. Ghetto D
7. Blueprint
8. Trap Musik
9. Straight Outta Compton
10. GKMC
^^^ I think thats a pretty good representation of what Hip Hop is. Or stated another way, I think we can all agree that, collectively, those albums represent the spirit of Hip Hop.
The thing that stands out the most is that these albums aren't necessarily in key, meaning, the producers had no regard for traditional music theory (maybe thats what we like about it). Also, the lyrics of these albums aren't in harmony with the melody of the music (samples).
While I agree that Hip Hop is enjoyable to listen to, I'm not convinced that it fits the description of the word "music". That isn't necessarily a good or bad thing, it just is what it is.
You're trying to hard for no reason at all.
Hip Hop doesn't have a Musical Scale or specific time signature. Hip Hop employs Scales and time signatures from various genres. To imply or say that they aren't present or used by Hip Hop producers is flat out false.
Any Music regardless of it's genre has to be in time, and\or in Key. Also, a Producer in 1986 or 2016 has engineers who do a final mix. I don't see a record making it off the desk of Major Record label knowing damn well the music is out of time and\or key.
What I think is at work here is your limited knowledge of Hip Hop. For you to dismiss almost an entire decade of Music where clearly TRAINED MUSICIANS were creating Hip Hop Music is, tragic. I get it you are trying to make a point. I just encourage you not to spread basura in your attempts.
