Rapper Ranking Project: Rapper #1 - Jay-Z
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The Lonious Monk
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So after some of the discussion we've had lately, I figured we could actually come up with a IC ranking list of well known rappers. Of course rankings like this are always subjective, but I think we can break down the criteria that makes a good rapper, come to some general consensus as to how well each rapper stands up in the various areas and use that as a relatively quantitative way of ranking them. I'll put the rules in the spoilers below.
Jay-Z
Lyrics (5) - Jay has been consistently strong in the quality of his writing. His lyrics are clear and easily understood, but also exhibit a style that keeps them from being mundane. He's caught some flack for biting in the past, but he has enough of his own lyrics that the accusation has always come off as overblown.
Delivery (3.5 4) - Jay has a decent flow and it works in most cases, but it's not the most dynamic. He also picks pretty safe beats usually, so he hasn't really demonstrated a great ability to sound good even over unorthodox beats. He sounds strong more often than not, but as seen on 4:44 he is not immune to sounding boring at times.
Language (5) - Jay isn't necessarily the best at this, but he is masterful. His work is littered with examples of slick wordplay. In fact, if you name a clever writing trick, Jay has probably used it and sounded dope doing so.
Storytelling (3 3.5) - Jay can tell a story, but that's not really his lane. His storytelling is ok, but it's not one of his major strengths and he doesn't turn to it as much as some others.
Catalog (4) - Jay has been prolific. He has 16 unique albums between solos and collabs. He has at least 2 generally agreed classics (i.e. Reasonable Doubt and Blueprint) and several fan classics. He has had some missteps though (Magna Carta) and several of his albums have lacked longevity. Still with the number of albums he's put out his track record is pretty good especially among his fans.
Subject Matter (3.5) - Jay has shown the ability to touch on a number of topics. He clearly has go to subjects, but he has strayed when needed. Overall he is not as diverse with topics as others, but he's definitely not a one or two trick pony.
Creativity (2 2.5) - He's not particularly creative. He plays it very safe and tends to take on whatever style of rap is popular at the time. His songs are usually very straight forward and he hasn't really used any unique concepts. He has a few gems like 22 2s, but those are relatively rare.
Collaboration (4 4.5) - He's rapped alongside some of the best rappers out there across several eras and generally holds his own. He's outshone people, but also been outshined. In general, he sounds like an elite no matter who else is on a track with him.
Impact (5) - He's pretty much the GOAT here. Has a ton of platinum albums and is one of the biggest figures in Hip Hop. His actual influence in the sense of setting trends has been overrated, but a Jay cosign of a trend can instantly make it popular.
Overall Score - 34.5 36.5
Post thoughts. I'll let this run for about a week before finalizing the scores. Next Rapper: Notorious B.I.G
So the way this works is I'll open each discussion for each rapper by scoring that rapper in the categories listed below. I will provide reasoning for the scores and everyone can discuss. If you believe my score for an area needs to be adjusted, make the argument for it. If you get a lot of support (i.e., cosigns or posts in agreement), I'll adjust the score accordingly and keep it up til there is somewhat of a consensus. If there is no real consensus I'll just make a judgement call. I think anyone whose seen my posts on here will agree I at least try to be objective. I'll do the same here. Each area will be scored from 1 to 5 with 1 being Wack and 5 being Elite. The areas that will be scored are:
Lyrics - The strength of writing. How complex are the rapper's lyrics? How well does he or she deliver a message? Does he or she have a unique style of lacing words or is he or she like everyone else?
Delivery - Flow, voice, ability to ride a variety of beats. Does the rapper consistently sound good when rapping? Can the rapper ride a variety of beats? Can the rapper switch flows easily and regularly between songs or even on the same song?
Language - wordplay, vocabulary, use of figurative language (e.g. metaphors). How clever is the rapper with the way he or she makes a point? Are the rapper's lines slick or are they usually plain in nature?
Storytelling - Ability to deliver a cohesive narrative. Can the rapper tell a story that makes sense? Has the rapper displayed the capability regularly? Do the stories make sense and are they interesting?
Catalog - The rapper's body of work. How many classics does the rapper have? How many trash albums? On average what is the overall quality of the catalog?
Subject Matter - What the rapper raps about. Is the rapper capable of speaking on a variety of topics? Does the rapper regularly mix up different topics? Does the rapper sound out of place when addressing certain topics.
Creativity - What separates the rapper from the pack. Does the rapper have a history for bringing a unique sound? Does the rapper make unique songs or apply unusual concepts? Does the rapper address unique topics or address topics in a unique manner.
Collaboration - Presence when rapping with others. How often has the rapper outshine others on a track? How often has the rapper been owned? Does the rapper collab with other strong rappers and hold his or her own?
Impact - How much the rapper has influenced the game. Has the rapper sold a lot or made well received albums? Has the rapper's work or style changed the culture? Has the rapper's characteristics (e.g., style, flow, persona) been copied or imitated?
Lyrics - The strength of writing. How complex are the rapper's lyrics? How well does he or she deliver a message? Does he or she have a unique style of lacing words or is he or she like everyone else?
Delivery - Flow, voice, ability to ride a variety of beats. Does the rapper consistently sound good when rapping? Can the rapper ride a variety of beats? Can the rapper switch flows easily and regularly between songs or even on the same song?
Language - wordplay, vocabulary, use of figurative language (e.g. metaphors). How clever is the rapper with the way he or she makes a point? Are the rapper's lines slick or are they usually plain in nature?
Storytelling - Ability to deliver a cohesive narrative. Can the rapper tell a story that makes sense? Has the rapper displayed the capability regularly? Do the stories make sense and are they interesting?
Catalog - The rapper's body of work. How many classics does the rapper have? How many trash albums? On average what is the overall quality of the catalog?
Subject Matter - What the rapper raps about. Is the rapper capable of speaking on a variety of topics? Does the rapper regularly mix up different topics? Does the rapper sound out of place when addressing certain topics.
Creativity - What separates the rapper from the pack. Does the rapper have a history for bringing a unique sound? Does the rapper make unique songs or apply unusual concepts? Does the rapper address unique topics or address topics in a unique manner.
Collaboration - Presence when rapping with others. How often has the rapper outshine others on a track? How often has the rapper been owned? Does the rapper collab with other strong rappers and hold his or her own?
Impact - How much the rapper has influenced the game. Has the rapper sold a lot or made well received albums? Has the rapper's work or style changed the culture? Has the rapper's characteristics (e.g., style, flow, persona) been copied or imitated?
Jay-Z
Lyrics (5) - Jay has been consistently strong in the quality of his writing. His lyrics are clear and easily understood, but also exhibit a style that keeps them from being mundane. He's caught some flack for biting in the past, but he has enough of his own lyrics that the accusation has always come off as overblown.
Delivery (3.5 4) - Jay has a decent flow and it works in most cases, but it's not the most dynamic. He also picks pretty safe beats usually, so he hasn't really demonstrated a great ability to sound good even over unorthodox beats. He sounds strong more often than not, but as seen on 4:44 he is not immune to sounding boring at times.
Language (5) - Jay isn't necessarily the best at this, but he is masterful. His work is littered with examples of slick wordplay. In fact, if you name a clever writing trick, Jay has probably used it and sounded dope doing so.
Storytelling (3 3.5) - Jay can tell a story, but that's not really his lane. His storytelling is ok, but it's not one of his major strengths and he doesn't turn to it as much as some others.
Catalog (4) - Jay has been prolific. He has 16 unique albums between solos and collabs. He has at least 2 generally agreed classics (i.e. Reasonable Doubt and Blueprint) and several fan classics. He has had some missteps though (Magna Carta) and several of his albums have lacked longevity. Still with the number of albums he's put out his track record is pretty good especially among his fans.
Subject Matter (3.5) - Jay has shown the ability to touch on a number of topics. He clearly has go to subjects, but he has strayed when needed. Overall he is not as diverse with topics as others, but he's definitely not a one or two trick pony.
Creativity (2 2.5) - He's not particularly creative. He plays it very safe and tends to take on whatever style of rap is popular at the time. His songs are usually very straight forward and he hasn't really used any unique concepts. He has a few gems like 22 2s, but those are relatively rare.
Collaboration (4 4.5) - He's rapped alongside some of the best rappers out there across several eras and generally holds his own. He's outshone people, but also been outshined. In general, he sounds like an elite no matter who else is on a track with him.
Impact (5) - He's pretty much the GOAT here. Has a ton of platinum albums and is one of the biggest figures in Hip Hop. His actual influence in the sense of setting trends has been overrated, but a Jay cosign of a trend can instantly make it popular.
Overall Score - 34.5 36.5
Post thoughts. I'll let this run for about a week before finalizing the scores. Next Rapper: Notorious B.I.G
Comments
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The goat period
Dope thread series btw -
Well if big is next..then hes almost 5 in everything!
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I think this concept alot
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Dope thread. Rap analytics
Can't wait for this to drop with some other rappers as the subject
I'll do my hov ranking soon. -
Nas is easily higher than a 34.5
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metal face terrorist wrote: »Nas is easily higher than a 34.5
We'll definitely do Nas soon. Here, let's work on some consensus of Jay's score though. Not everyone has to agree completely, but does everything think it's reasonable given the justifications? -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »metal face terrorist wrote: »Nas is easily higher than a 34.5
We'll definitely do Nas soon. Here, let's work on some consensus of Jay's score though. Not everyone has to agree completely, but does everything think it's reasonable given the justifications?
Your score of Jay is pretty ? accurate. So is Jay number is the #1 rapper with a score of 34.5 and every rapper after him would have a score less than 34.5? Or your scoring system is being used to define the best rapper and Jay was just the first rapper picked for discussion. -
Lyrics - 4 (Jay when he is on top of his game is untouchable and would be a 5, but hes not always on top of his game and other than 4.44 most his ? since AG been average lyrically)
Delivery - 4 (Again, prime Jay delivery cannot be questioned and would be a 5, but his delivery been on and off since AG)
Language - 5 (wordplay has always been amazing.
Storytelling - 4 (even though it usually always the same story)
Catalog - 4 (Jay got classics and duds. His catalog is elite compared to the average rapper, but since Jay is a GOAT, he gets compared to GOATs, and when compared to other GOAT catalogs, he gets a 4)
Subject Matter - 4 (woulda been a 3 before 4.44. Jay excels when he switches his subject matter, he just doesnt do it enough)
Creativity - 3 (he stay wave jumping)
Collaboration - 5 (Jay has rapped with elite rappers and has held his own at the worst. Jay never got killed on a track. He might have not had the best verse, but he always held his own)
Impact - 5 (no need to expand on this)
Overall - 38
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metal face terrorist wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »metal face terrorist wrote: »Nas is easily higher than a 34.5
We'll definitely do Nas soon. Here, let's work on some consensus of Jay's score though. Not everyone has to agree completely, but does everything think it's reasonable given the justifications?
Your score of Jay is pretty ? accurate. So is Jay number is the #1 rapper with a score of 34.5 and every rapper after him would have a score less than 34.5? Or your scoring system is being used to define the best rapper and Jay was just the first rapper picked for discussion.
My purpose for each of these is to come up with a score for each rapper independent of comparisons and based solely on that rapper's ranking in each of those areas. Then once they have a relatively objective score, you can compare them. Jay isn't number 1. He's just the first selected. Where he ranks ultimately will depend on how many of these we do before people get bored and how his score compares to everyone else's. -
Should add beat selection
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Built 4 cuban linx wrote: »Should add beat selection
I thought about that, but not all rappers have the same access to the same quality of beats. For example, Jay has top tier producers behind him, so him having better production on his albums isn't necessarily due to a better ear than other rappers. -
so is this going to be the standard for judging rappers from now on? you should also make sure to include those that would be considered the best at what they do in each category.
an example would be, if you rate someone having a 3.5 for flow, then you have to give examples of rappers with a flow of 5. do this for each category. and sticky that. and then you can debate using songs from the person's actual catalog and reduce the level of subjectivity, and make it more objective and measurable when giving ratings.
for instance if you were going to say Luda's ability to rap fast, then you'd use a song like "Freaky Thangs" as an example where he's rapping with someone who's known for rapping fast and would get a 5 in that category like Twista.
but that's an example of where Luda is actually on a track with a 5 fast rapper. the goal would be to have each category have 5 to 10 songs of (level 5 style standards.)
sticky the categories. rank the rappers and after rating them, then put them in the category section.
it's one thing to say someone is the goat storyteller, has the best word play, dopest rhyme patterns or nicest flow. but rap kind of lacks official standards. -
so is this going to be the standard for judging rappers from now on? you should also make sure to include those that would be considered the best at what they do in each category.
an example would be, if you rate someone having a 3.5 for flow, then you have to give examples of rappers with a flow of 5. do this for each category. and sticky that. and then you can debate using songs from the person's actual catalog and reduce the level of subjectivity, and make it more objective and measurable when giving ratings.
for instance if you were going to say Luda's ability to rap fast, then you'd use a song like "Freaky Thangs" as an example where he's rapping with someone who's known for rapping fast and would get a 5 in that category like Twista.
but that's an example of where Luda is actually on a track with a 5 fast rapper. the goal would be to have each category have 5 to 10 songs of (level 5 style standards.)
sticky the categories. rank the rappers and after rating them, then put them in the category section.
it's one thing to say someone is the goat storyteller, has the best word play, dopest rhyme patterns or nicest flow. but rap kind of lacks official standards.
My purpose with this series is to score and ultimately rank candidates for GOAT.
I'd have no problem with my scoring methodology for this to be used as a general way to compare rappers, and I'd have no problem doing what you suggested if people thought it would be useful and if it would actually be stickied. -
should do it for beats too. and probably for sports when they debate HOF and GOAT status by position
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Built 4 cuban linx wrote: »Should add beat selection
Cosign.
But I also think there should be a category for making hits. For example, Jay Z has dozens of songs that got radio play that a DJ would play at a nightclub, Nas might be better in other categories but Nas doesn't make hits like Jay. If you went to a nightclub between 97-03 you'd be more likely to hear a Jay Z set than a Nas set.
Ma$e, Luda, Ja Rule, Lil John, Missy, they might not be the greatest MCs but they should get points for making hits and club bangers. -
Built 4 cuban linx wrote: »Should add beat selection
Cosign.
But I also think there should be a category for making hits. For example, Jay Z has dozens of songs that got radio play that a DJ would play at a nightclub, Nas might be better in other categories but Nas doesn't make hits like Jay. If you went to a nightclub between 97-03 you'd be more likely to hear a Jay Z set than a Nas set.
Ma$e, Luda, Ja Rule, Lil John, Missy, they might not be the greatest MCs but they should get points for making hits and club bangers.
You can consider ability to make hits under Impact. It shouldn't be its own category though because it's not solely a result of the rapper's ability. Lil John has more hits than Nas, but it's not because he's a better rapper in any sense. It's because he makes club oriented, casual music. Those type songs get more radio play. A rapper shouldn't get extra credit because they make a certain type of music just like others shouldn't get penalized because they don't make that type. On top of that, we know certain rappers have gotten bigger pushes from record companies, radio stations, and other media outlets. Sometimes a hit isn't a hit because it's a superior song. Sometimes a hit is a hit because it's received exposure that other songs just didn't have. -
Lyrics (4)-Solid
Delivery (3)- His flow was average and I say this as a fan(of his older stuff anyways)
Language (5)-When he speaks you listen
Storytelling (5)-He was never the best lyricist but he knew how to tell a story.
Catalog (4)-He gets 4 best off the streengh of his old albums. His new work just doesn't have the same punch
Subject Matter (4)-He's fairly creative he can do club hits to political stuff in a flash
Creativity (5)-No need to explain this he's Jay-z for peeps sake
Collaboration (5)-When Jay-Z is on the track you better bring your a game or you'll be washed.
Impact (5)-He's the richest rapper in the game and pop culture icon. -
This isn't really a "Everybody rank the rapper" topic. I provided the base rankings. If you think something I put was wrong, then call it out and give an argument for why it should be changed. That way we'll be able to refine the scores until some agreement can be achieved.
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The Lonious Monk wrote: »Built 4 cuban linx wrote: »Should add beat selection
Cosign.
But I also think there should be a category for making hits. For example, Jay Z has dozens of songs that got radio play that a DJ would play at a nightclub, Nas might be better in other categories but Nas doesn't make hits like Jay. If you went to a nightclub between 97-03 you'd be more likely to hear a Jay Z set than a Nas set.
Ma$e, Luda, Ja Rule, Lil John, Missy, they might not be the greatest MCs but they should get points for making hits and club bangers.
You can consider ability to make hits under Impact. It shouldn't be its own category though because it's not solely a result of the rapper's ability. Lil John has more hits than Nas, but it's not because he's a better rapper in any sense. It's because he makes club oriented, casual music. Those type songs get more radio play. A rapper shouldn't get extra credit because they make a certain type of music just like others shouldn't get penalized because they don't make that type. On top of that, we know certain rappers have gotten bigger pushes from record companies, radio stations, and other media outlets. Sometimes a hit isn't a hit because it's a superior song. Sometimes a hit is a hit because it's received exposure that other songs just didn't have.The Lonious Monk wrote: »This isn't really a "Everybody rank the rapper" topic. I provided the base rankings. If you think something I put was wrong, then call it out and give an argument for why it should be changed. That way we'll be able to refine the scores until some agreement can be achieved.
Well you have 9 categories. I don't see the harm in making a 10th category for making hits. Some people are dope MCs, but they can't make a hit to save their life. Look at Wu-Tang, all nine of them are skilled MCs, but Method Man and Ghostface are the best at making hits (Old ? made some hits). And if you think about it, everything else is equal amongst all of the MCs in Wu Tang. They all had the same producer and the same amount of promotion.. -
metal face terrorist wrote: »Nas is easily higher than a 34.5
Well that didnt take long... -
No one is rap has better delivery than Jay
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How the ? u gona give Jay a 3 for delivery?
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Jay's delivery is ok, but it's not great. There are plenty of people that have had better delivery over the years: Big Boi, Eminem, Big Pun, Biggie, Cannabis, Method Man, etc...
Well you have 9 categories. I don't see the harm in making a 10th category for making hits. Some people are dope MCs, but they can't make a hit to save their life. Look at Wu-Tang, all nine of them are skilled MCs, but Method Man and Ghostface are the best at making hits (Old ? made some hits). And if you think about it, everything else is equal amongst all of the MCs in Wu Tang. They all had the same producer and the same amount of promotion..
Like I said, it's fair to factor that into the score for Impact, but there are too many things that go into commercial hits outside of a rapper's ability to give that it's own category. Hammer has more hits than Black Thought, Common, Talib Kweli, and a lot of other rappers that are much better than him. He doesn't deserve have a category up on him just because he made music that appealed to a wider commercial base. -
another J-Z thread ... smh
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I probably would have given him a 4 for delivery/flow, and AG alone should have gotten him at least a 3 for creativity's sake.
Other than that, I agree with your assessment.
