George Zimmerman Trial Thread (Found Not Guilty Jesus help us...)
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Before last night's Jay Leno show came to an end, Nelly, Talib Kweli, and Abbey Dobson took to the stage to pay tribute to Trayvon Martin with a live performance of "Before He Walked".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXkKi05hhW8 -
Tell a lie often enough people will believe it.
The bigger the lie, the more they believe. - Bunk, The Wire. -
I'll break this down for you--by focusing on the key differences here between Alexander's and Zimmerman's claims, and the facts supporting them--to sum things up and so I can reference this in the future.Hyde Parke wrote: »all of these actions were operating from within the foundation of fear and can be argued as such. The series of events that led up to the warning shot could easily be established as the fear increasing/escalating.
fear: 1.feeling of anxiety: an unpleasant feeling of anxiety or apprehension caused by the presence or anticipation of danger
2.frightening thought: an idea, thought, or other entity that causes feelings of fear
by definition, this supports the actions she took as a result of that by law. Her not calling 911 can not be used to support her alleged lack of fear as the actions taken as a result there of can vary from person to person. Which is why the law does not give different scenarios regarding such.
What matters is, as you and others have argued on behalf of Zimmerman is what was going thru her mind at the actual moment the shot was fired.
Her children being in the vicinity even further supports her claim as it is very clear she did not intend to cause harm to them.
all of these actions were operating from within the operating principle of fear.
You can disagree with how she handled the situation, as what is going on with the Zimmerman case, but by your own token you would have to concede it is subjective, otherwise you are showing yourself to be very biased for whatever reasons only known to yourself.
I) Reason for the fear
Zimmerman said he feared "imminent peril of death or great ? harm" because Treyvon was beating him. There are injuries and witness testimony supporting that a fight occurred.
Alexander said she feared "imminent peril of death or great ? harm" because Gray attacked and threatened her. She had no injuries supporting this and no one to corroborate the threat.
II) Reasons force had to be used out of fear
Zimmerman said he screamed for help and tried to get away from Treyvon during the beating. Eyewitness testimony supports that Zimmerman was screaming for help while being beaten by Treyvon.
Alexander said she went to the garage walking past Gray--who had already announced they were leaving--and his sons, and walking past the front and back doors; but she went back in because the garage door was broken and she couldn't get out. There was no proof that anything was wrong with the garage door, the front door, or the back door.
III) Force used to alleviate the fear
Zimmerman says he shot Treyvon in the chest to stop him from continuing the beating. Treyvon was shot in the chest shortly after an eyewitness saw Treyvon beating Zimmerman.
Alexander says she shot towards Gray as a warning. There was a bullet hole found in the area Gray and his sons were standing.
IV) Actions after using the force
Zimmerman said he shot Treyvon in self-defense immediately after killing Treyvon. A witness heard this and said it looked like Zimmerman had just been beaten.
Alexander stayed in the home after shooting at Gray and his sons. She didn't call the cops or try to leave. She continued to visit his home after her arrest, and she physically attacked him on one occasion.
^^Now, doing the same thing I did with Zimmerman's claims in this post, I assume that all of the defendant's claims are unreliable, to see which facts remain.Gold_Certificate wrote: »...Even if you assume that none of Zimmerman's words are reliable, these facts still remain...
I) Reason for the fear
There are injuries showing Zimmerman was hurt, and there is witness testimony supporting a fight occurred.
Alexander had no injuries supporting Gray attacking her and no one to corroborate that he threatened her.
II) Reasons force had to be used out of fear
Eyewitness testimony supports that Zimmerman was screaming for help while being beaten by Treyvon.
There was no proof that anything was wrong with the garage door, the front door, or the back door.
III) Force used to alleviate the fear
Treyvon was shot in the chest shortly after an eyewitness saw Treyvon beating Zimmerman.
There was a bullet hole found in the area Gray and his sons were standing.
IV) Actions after using the force
A witness says Zimmerman told him he shot Treyvon in self-defense and that it looked like Zimmerman had just been beaten.
Alexander stayed in the home after shooting at Gray and his sons, she didn't call the cops or try to leave, she continued to visit his home after her arrest, and she physically attacked him on one occasion.
^^As you can see, there is nothing other than Marissa Alexander's own changing testimony to support her claims; in fact, the testimonies of Gray and his sons contradict hers. On the other hand, Zimmerman had witnesses and physical evidence to support his claims in addition to his changing testimony.
The reason this is important is that the burden of proof is on the defendant when trying to receive immunity under 776.032.
Zimmerman did not try to receive immunity under 776.032, so he was not required to establish his right to immunity. Alexander was required to establish her right to immunity, and all she had was her changing testimony.
During the trial, Alexander was offered a plea deal, but she rejected it, and she claimed she only shot as a warning. Intent to harm is not required for aggravated assault under Florida law; so, as a result she received the steep minimum sentence. -
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It seems Martin's dad doesn't care as much for the fan fare as the mother.
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Ugh... Al Sharpton is the worst on-air, 'news' person EVER... ? cant read for ? and has the worst cadence ever because... HE CANT READ FOR ?
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stringer bell wrote: »articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-07-18/news/os-zimmerman-alternate-juror-20130717_1_juror-b-37-george-zimmerman-17-year-old-trayvonZimmerman alternate juror says he doesn't understand post-verdict protests
An alternate juror in the George Zimmerman murder case spoke out Wednesday night on WOFL-Channel 35, saying he doesn't understand the post-verdict protests that have spread across the U.S.
"People are going to be angry no matter what the verdict was," the man told reporter Valerie Boey, adding that he doesn't understand why some people think shooting victim Trayvon Martin's civil rights were violated.
The man, whose face was obscured, said he wanted to identify himself but he was concerned for his safety. Circuit Judge Debra Nelson has not made the jurors' names public.
The alternate juror said he supported the six jurors who decided on a not-guilty verdict the case, whom he described as "like sisters" to him. He said they made a lawful decision when they found Zimmerman not guilty of murdering 17-year-old Trayvon in Sanford last year.
Trayvon, who was black, was visiting his father and his father's girlfriend in Zimmerman's neighborhood.
The alternate juror said he did not agree with the assessment of juror B-37, who was critical of Zimmerman for getting out of his sport utility vehicle to follow Trayvon in Zimmerman's gated community. The confrontation that ended in Trayvon's death occurred after Zimmerman got out of the SUV.
"He had the right to be where he was," the alternate juror said. "I don't think he had to go back to his car."
The man also said:
•He was surprised that juror B-37 spoke out on CNN's Anderson Cooper 360 program on Monday and Tuesday, saying he thought it was too soon after the trial.
•He thought it was George Zimmerman's voice crying out for help on a 911 tape during a struggle between Trayvon and him. Zimmerman's parents testified that it was their son's voice. Trayvon's parents testified that it was their son's.
Smh @ another tone deaf ? .. If he wouldve been on jury.. they would have comeback with verdict in like 8hrs instead of 16hrs...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-8IFeppKmk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osqIMMWtbJs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5Hccy3F-x4
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Florida is horrible. Never going there. ? like this doesn't make me feel welcome, and I hope others follow suit until they get their act together. For me Southern California has always been the go-to place in the states.
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I) Reason for the fearGold Certificate-I'll break this down for you--by focusing on the key differences here between Alexander's and Zimmerman's claims, and the facts supporting them--to sum things up and so I can reference this in the future.
Zimmerman said he feared "imminent peril of death or great ? harm" because Treyvon was beating him. There are injuries and witness testimony supporting that a fight occurred.
Alexander said she feared "imminent peril of death or great ? harm" because Gray attacked and threatened her. She had no injuries supporting this and no one to corroborate the threat.-
Lol, Zimmerman said Trayvon was beating him, witnesses did not corroborate that statement, they only conceded there had been a fight. there was no proof/evidence to suggest Trayvon caused those injuries. None. Alexander did claim that she was choked and threatened. I could not find any information to disprove that, and its really a red herring as the law does not state you have to have sustained injuries, visible or not to support your claim of fear. By her husband's original account he was the aggressor, so if she did need to support that claim, his sworn testimony is good enough
II) Reasons force had to be used out of fear
Zimmerman said he screamed for help and tried to get away from Treyvon during the beating. Eyewitness testimony supports that Zimmerman was screaming for help while being beaten by Treyvon.-
No actual eye witness observed Zimmerman screaming for help. This is false. Zimmerman also never said he tried to get away from Trayvon. Again false. This is speculation and not part of any actual testimony.
Alexander said she went to the garage walking past Gray--who had already announced they were leaving--and his sons, and walking past the front and back doors; but she went back in because the garage door was broken and she couldn't get out. There was no proof that anything was wrong with the garage door, the front door, or the back door
Alexander did say she went to the garage, she did not say she walked past Gary. Her are Alexander's actual words:
In an unprovoked jealous rage, my husband violently confronted me while using the restroom. He assaulted me, shoving, strangling and holding me against my will, preventing me from fleeing all while I begged for him to leave. After a minute or two of trying to escape, I was able to make it to the garage where my truck was parked, but in my haste to leave I realized my keys were missing. I tried to open the garage but there was a mechanical failure. I was unable to leave, trapped in the dark with no way out. For protection against further assault I retrieved my weapon; which is registered and I have a concealed weapon permit. Trapped, no phone, I entered back into my home to either leave through another exit or obtain my cell phone.
He and my two stepsons were supposed to be exiting the house thru the front door, but he didn’t leave. Instead he came into the kitchen that leads to the garage and realized I was unable to leave. Instead of leaving thru the front door where his vehicle was parked outside of the garage, he came into the kitchen by himself. I was terrified from the first encounter and feared he came to do as he had threatened. The weapon was in my right hand down by my side and he yelled, “? I will ? you!”, and charged toward me. In fear and desperate attempt, I lifted my weapon up, turned away and discharged a single shot in the wall up in the ceiling. As I stood my ground it prevented him from doing what he threatened and he ran out of the home. Outside of the home, he contacted the police and falsely reported that I shot at him and his sons. The police arrived and I was taken into custody
III) Force used to alleviate the fear
Zimmerman says he shot Treyvon in the chest to stop him from continuing the beating. Treyvon was shot in the chest shortly after an eyewitness saw Treyvon beating Zimmerman.
False- An eyewitness never said Trayvon was actually beating Zimmerman, only that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, and saw his hands going in a downward motion but could not say if Trayvon was actually hitting Zimmerman.
Alexander says she shot towards Gray as a warning. There was a bullet hole found in the area Gray and his sons were standing.- nothing wrong with that. that was proven with her statement.
IV) Actions after using the force
Zimmerman said he shot Treyvon in self-defense immediately after killing Treyvon. A witness heard this and said it looked like Zimmerman had just been beaten. a witness heard the shot. Zimmerman said he shot in self defense.
The only fact here is that Trayvon was indeed shot. The claims of Zimmerman and the eye witness after the shooting are just opinions.
Alexander stayed in the home after shooting at Gray and his sons. She didn't call the cops or try to leave. She continued to visit his home after her arrest, and she physically attacked him on one occasion.
She may have still been in fear or shock after discharging a weapon, there was nothing illegal about her staying in the home afterwards. Also, she may have known that he had called 911, so its possible she waited for the authorities to arrive. The alleged physical attack is hearsay. The ex husband made this claim. It could easily be disproven as his testimony to the actual incident, he originally told prosecutors that he was the aggressor, not Alexander. Under a sworn statement in Nov 2010.
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Gold Cerificate ^Now, doing the same thing I did with Zimmerman's claims in this post, I assume that all of the defendant's claims are unreliable, to see which facts remain. Even if you assume that none of Zimmerman's words are reliable, these facts still remain
I) Reason for the fear
There are injuries showing Zimmerman was hurt, and there is witness testimony supporting a fight occurred.
Nothing in that statement supports reason of fear on Zimmerman's behalf. Matter of fact, Zimmerman himself, NEVER SAYS HE WAS IN ANY FEAR. NONE OF THE POLICE OR TV INTERVIEWS.
Alexander had no injuries supporting Gray attacking her and no one to corroborate that he threatened her.
She was choked, depending on the force used, it is possible their were no visible injuries.
Her husband corroborated that he threatened her when under sworn testimony, he admitted to being the aggressor.
II) Reasons force had to be used out of fear
Eyewitness testimony supports that Zimmerman was screaming for help while being beaten by Treyvon
.-Again, this is false, no eyewitness observed Zimmerman screaming for help. This is the reason the 911 call was repeatedly played over and over.
There was no proof that anything was wrong with the garage door, the front door, or the back door.
there was no proof there not being anything with the garage door also. She said it was jammed. I haven't seen any evidence to dispute that.
III) Force used to alleviate the fear
Treyvon was shot in the chest shortly after an eyewitness saw Treyvon beating Zimmerman. FALSE.
There was a bullet hole found in the area Gray and his sons were standing. MEANINGLESS
IV) Actions after using the force
A witness says Zimmerman told him he shot Treyvon in self-defense and that it looked like Zimmerman had just been beaten.
Alexander stayed in the home after shooting at Gray and his sons, she didn't call the cops or try to leave, she continued to visit his home after her arrest, and she physically attacked him on one occasion.
^^As you can see, there is nothing other than Marissa Alexander's own changing testimony to support her claims; in fact, the testimonies of Gray and his sons contradict hers. On the other hand, Zimmerman had witnesses and physical evidence to support his claims in addition to his changing testimony.
The reason this is important is that the burden of proof is on the defendant when trying to receive immunity under 776.032.
Zimmerman did not try to receive immunity under 776.032, so he was not required to establish his right to immunity. Alexander was required to establish her right to immunity, and all she had was her changing testimony.
During the trial, Alexander was offered a plea deal, but she rejected it, and she claimed she only shot as a warning. Intent to harm is not required for aggravated assault under Florida law; so, as a result she received the steep minimum sentence.[/quote]
Alexander's testimony changed no more than Gray's. On the account of one of the mother's of Gray's son:
The mother of one of Rico Gray’s children testified in court that her son explained to her, “Ms. Alexander did not fire at us, but rather fired in the air because Dad was beating her.”
the prosecutors were not happy that she didn't accept the 3yr assault charge, on the plea deal, so they went all out and charged her with the max. imo. an overreaction if you will. -
numbaz...80's baby wrote: »? I thought about moving to Florida last year too.
? all of that.
dont you live ATL? why would you downgrade to Florida? -
man watchin this ? and its crazy smh..
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numbaz...80's baby wrote: »BlackGerald wrote: »numbaz...80's baby wrote: »? I thought about moving to Florida last year too.
? all of that.
dont you live ATL? why would you downgrade to Florida?
Georgia police department aint about ? . I want to move somewhere else in the south. Florida and Texas was 2 of my main options along with Charlotte. H-town is looking real good right about now. I wasn't too aware of Florida being as bad as it was until now.
Im from up north so i'm not too familiar with those cities. i will prolly end up moving down south eventually after college tho. Houston seems cool tho. when my parents/grandparents move they will prolly head to Houston, Charlotte or South Florida tho -
Hyde Parke wrote: »Alexander stayed in the home after shooting at Gray and his sons. She didn't call the cops or try to leave. She continued to visit his home after her arrest, and she physically attacked him on one occasion.
She may have still been in fear or shock after discharging a weapon, there was nothing illegal about her staying in the home afterwards. Also, she may have known that he had called 911, so its possible she waited for the authorities to arrive. The alleged physical attack is hearsay. The ex husband made this claim. It could easily be disproven as his testimony to the actual incident, he originally told prosecutors that he was the aggressor, not Alexander. Under a sworn statement in Nov 2010.
She pleaded "no contest" to physically attacking Gray and Gray had injuries, so it's more than hearsay; and it does not support her claim that she feared him.Hyde Parke wrote: »Alexander's testimony changed no more than Gray's. On the account of one of the mother's of Gray's son:
The mother of one of Rico Gray’s children testified in court that her son explained to her, “Ms. Alexander did not fire at us, but rather fired in the air because Dad was beating her.”
the prosecutors were not happy that she didn't accept the 3yr assault charge, on the plea deal, so they went all out and charged her with the max. imo. an overreaction if you will.
It was not illegal for her to wait in the house afterward, but it didn't support her claim that she feared "imminent peril of death or great ? harm". The law doesn't require that she be injured either, but lack of injuries doesn't support the claim that she was attacked. Witnesses can be unreliable/subjective, but the presence of corroborating witness testimony can support a claim. This was the case with John Good's testimony:
Good then said he went inside to call 911, and the gunshot occurred while the call was connecting.Gold_Certificate wrote: »...John Good still said he saw "ground and pound" being delivered to Zimmerman. And he couldn't be 100% sure about the screaming, but he believed it was Zimmerman screaming for help...
Zimmerman claimed he shot Treyvon in self-defense, under 776.012; this claim includes fear of "imminent peril of death or great ? harm" in its instruction.
Her walking past Gray and his kids comes from the judge's order after the immunity hearing.
The bullet hole was in the wall; refuting the "fired into the air" claim. This is meaningful, because it's the reason she was charged with three counts of aggravated assault.
Gray didn't originally say he was the aggressor, he said that at the deposition; which was after his initial statement to the police, and after he and Alexander discussed what he should say at the deposition. He later said that he lied at the deposition.
His 911 call is here:
Now, this doesn't mean she couldn't have feared "imminent peril of death or great ? harm", but at the immunity hearing, the burden of proof was on her. This is why her immunity was denied, because she lacked anything supporting her claim other than her own changing testimony.
I'd blame her lawyer, her lack of supporting evidence was revealed to the prosecution at the immunity hearing. Giving the prosecution the upper hand during the trial.
Then, by turning down the plea, she received the mandatory sentence under Florida's "10-20-Life" rule.
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stringer bell wrote: »Before last night's Jay Leno show came to an end, Nelly, Talib Kweli, and Abbey Dobson took to the stage to pay tribute to Trayvon Martin with a live performance of "Before He Walked".http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXkKi05hhW8
? go hard -
CNN found that mega ? Jesse Lee Petersen.. He called Trayvon was thug.. ? all these ? ...
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for anyone wondering why Zimmerman wasn't charged, here's whyIt certainly appears that he did, as Lawrence O'Donnell uncovers in this segment.
Robert Zimmerman, retired Virginia Supreme Court magistrate and father of George Zimmerman, has been making the rounds for media interviews with Fox News exclusively. He's cloaked in shadow, of course, so he isn't identified. In those interviews, he was asked whether the police knew he was a retired magistrate and whether that might have had an impact on their decision to let George Zimmerman go free that night without taking his clothes or keeping his gun, or doing any of the usual investigation that police do when they find a dead kid laying on his stomach with his hands underneath him.
Zimmerman's answer to the question was a denial and not a denial. He said, "No one knew that I was a retired magistrate judge. I didn't mention it to the police. I didn't mention it to the state attorney's office."
How interesting that he would specifically say he didn't mention it, without any denial that he spoke to them. Do you think that the police might have known who George Zimmerman was before they showed up that night, simply because he had called them 48 times in the past two months? Do you think it's possible, maybe even probable, that George Zimmerman had bragged about having a daddy who was a retired magistrate judge, or that he might have mentioned it that night when his daddy came to the police station to talk to the state attorney and police but didn't mention that he was a retired judge?
It seems to me, as it did Lawrence O'Donnell, that Zimmerman's statement that he didn't "mention it" to the police or city attorney implies that he was speaking to them. That night. And whether he mentioned it or not, I'd say it's more probable than not that they knew who Zimmerman was, and who his daddy was.
http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/did-george-zimmermans-father-talk-sanford-p -
Gold_Certificate wrote: »
? , c-3po is trained in over six million forms of communication but I didn't know ratchet was one of them..lol
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damobb2deep wrote: »Tommy bilfiger wrote: »His moms want obama to do somethin about it now she's so naive.Dumbo aint gonna do ?
I feel sorry for trayvon parents they putting faith in ? and thinking their faith will get them thru this.Their son died senselessly and ? /jesus and the rest of those figments of sheeps imagination won't change that
this has been more talked about then the boston bombings... I will say this this aint one of those stories that will " just go away" something will get done no matter how " small" u might think.. their faith n ? is whats gonna get them thru... the media pressure and the people signing petitions is whats gonna get ? changed...
You right! The law will be rewritten because of this and issues like it. Just takes time to filter through the proper channels. -
numbaz...80's baby wrote: »? I thought about moving to Florida last year too.
? all of that.
Bruh.. That chick in ya avi got my suspect meter at about 95.
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50% chance of catching them, 100% chance she has AIDS.
So what's new with the "movement"? I didn't look today. -
that's one of the main things that trips me out so much: it took this jury only 12 minutes to decide to send this woman to prison for 20 years. ? is ? up. i'm sure her jury of "peers" was comprised of nothing but whites too.Hyde Parke wrote: »desertrain10 wrote: »Hyde Parke wrote: »^^^^^^
where/what is the difference? Both actions are operating from the foundation of reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great ? harm to himself or herself or another, as supported by the law.
retreat would not be the correct term to use when describing either as to retreat means: "to withdraw". Neither of those situations are indicative of retreating. They are only acts that are the result of one who believes they are in fear of their life.
right
their was some sort of argument which lead to a fight, scared because her abusive husband had just threatened to ? her inside her own home, she ran to get her gun that was inside her car.... i don't see how she retreated and even if she did, i thought under florida law she had the right too
and if im not mistaken she said she did intend to get into her car and leave but the garage door wouldn't open or that she forgot her keys...
smh
guess it would have been better if she ran into the kitchen and grabbed a knife and stabbed him to death
right. she did not retreat. she was acting on her fear. plain and simple. I doubt if the outcome would have been any different if she had killed him really. the self defense, stand your ground laws are highly favorable when used by white people and the outcome of the majority of them are in their favor. Statistics prove this. Another interesting fact is that it took the jury only 12minutes to find her guilty and we've been discussing it here much longer than that.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN0jdWgdW20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL0pExslwRgThis discussion has been closed.