Let's End The Debate: Kareem Abdul Jabbar vs Michael Jordan
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Michael Jeffrey JordanKAJ have an MVP on a losing team that missed the playoffs.
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Kareem Abdul JabbarShizlansky wrote: »KAJ have an MVP on a losing team that missed the playoffs.
Yeah... Did Jordan ever do that? -
Kareem Abdul JabbarLol @ making an argument comparing skill for skill, as if they don't play completely different positions. Let's see, Kareem is better at all of the big man stuff and Jordan is better at all of the guard stuff. Basketball accolades? Kareem edges it.
At the end of the day, I'm taking an elite Center over an elite guard, as elite Centers are far more dominant by design (they're the biggest things on the court). The elite big man locks the paint down making it hard for the entire team to drive to the basket, and usually dominates the opposition by putting their big man in foul trouble, taking away their defensive anchor, which shifts the entire dynamic of the game. -
the_focused_one wrote: »Objectively speaking Kareem is the GOAT.
There are also cases to be made for Magic and Bill Russell being BETTER than Jordan, if not at least as good. The old school OGs of the game are up there as well, but have been forgotten about because the media was barely covering the NBA, let alone worshiping one particular player for an entire decade because it was "good for business."
As a couple of posters before have said, Michael Jordan NEVER won ANYTHING without Scottie Pippen. Jordan absolutely could not beat Larry Bird or Isiah Thomas until both were old and their teams injured. It was the perfect storm that right as the old guard got old and injured, the Bulls got Scottie AND Phil AND the NBA EXPANDED by 6 teams between '89-95, which also diluted the talent pool and the Bulls became more complete just as teams were being spread thin and losing talent.
Also, Jordan's first ring came against a shell of the 80s Lakers. Yeah Magic was there (and BALLED on Jordan when playing one on one BTW), but Cooper, Nixon, Wilkes, Rambis, and Kareem were all gone by then. And Byron Scott and James Worthy were both hurt that series and didn't even play the final game. Jordan did not beat SHOWTIME.
Jordan is Top 5 in my book, but I don't buy into the Disney Hero/ Untouchable/ Stephen A. Smith's ? -like figure that the media makes Jordan out to be. He was the best player of the 1990s and ONE of the greatest ever. That's it.
It's all about the branding of his image...
What did kareem win without Oscar or Magic? NOTHING.Jordan took his team to the playoffs 2 years without Pippen when he was 23-25 years old kaj was losing in the 1st/2nd round and missed the playoffs before magic arrived to sustain his career
The expansion talking point is trash the hornets,magic and heat were all playoff teams in the early to mid 90's and all were east teams the bulls faced the magic and heat in the ecf that "diluted talent" point is awful
Jordan couldn't beat the celtics or pistons because his team was young and not as deep or experienced,that should go without saying.
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Anybody peep how they say the same ? ? lol commercials,marketing,nike etc explain how kareem is the better basketball player than mike without talking about space jam & air jordans
Again who was the better playoff/finals performer,scorer,defender,more dominant and who had teams creating rules to stop them? Jordan made pippen a hall of famer kareem benefited from a top 2-3 pg that's why magic won more mvp's and finals mvp's than kareem.Lakers went to the Wcf the year after kaj retired and the finals 2 years after he retired but yea he's "the goat" FOH.Dudes put kareem on personal pedestals cuz he was militant there's no case for him being better than jordan skill wise he was not more dominant,more influential and didn't impact his team more than jordan. -
Michael
Kareem -
Kareem Abdul JabbarTommy bilfiger wrote: »Anybody peep how they say the same ? ? lol commercials,marketing,nike etc explain how kareem is the better basketball player than mike without talking about space jam & air jordans
I already explained in detail without once mentioning Space Jam and Air Jordans. However, with that said, Marketing is a HUGE reason for talking about Jordan the way ESPN and mainstream media does today. The public rarely steers any narrative in media- it's always the gatekeepers, and ESPN and many, many other companies had a huge stake in Jordan being seen as the Alpha and Omega of basketball long before the two 3-peats...Again who was the better playoff/finals performer,scorer,defender,more dominant and who had teams creating rules to stop them?
The Jordan Rules were two basic principles set by the Pistons.
1) If Jordan goes left to the paint, guard him as best as possible without letting him actually get to the basket. No double team, as he wasn't as good shooting from the left side or using his left hand. In the man to man era, Jordan ran a lot of flex clear out plays, and in so doing, the area he drove in was often deserted. Since he didn't like to pass until the shot clock was almost up, Jordan would be forced into bad shots, rushed shots by teammates, or turnover prone if he was well defended on his left.
2) If Jordan went right, immediately commit to a double team and if he gets to the paint, put his ass on the floor so he thinks twice. This was often worth it, because Jordan was going to get a foul called regardless if anyone touched him or not in the paint, so Detroit figured out that it would be best to get in his head early in the game to not drive to his right where he was more sure handed.
That's it. The Jordan rules were not that complicated or robust. It was a successful strategy by Detroit that gets a little overblown. It wouldn't even be necessary today with zone defenses.Jordan made pippen a hall of famer
NO HE DID NOT. That's a media fairy tale. See my other posts about Pippen. TLDR version: Pippen's 94 Bulls only loss 2 more games without Jordan, had a higher defensive rating and everyone enjoyed a higher shooting percentage with Pippen distributing the ball more evenly and in a timely manner regarding time on the shot clock. Pippen made Pippen and won in the playoffs without Jordan.kareem benefited from a top 2-3 pg that's why magic won more mvp's and finals mvp's than kareem. Lakers went to the Wcf the year after kaj retired and the finals 2 years after he retired but yea he's "the goat" FOH.Dudes put kareem on personal pedestals cuz he was militant there's no case for him being better than jordan skill wise he was not more dominant,more influential and didn't impact his team more than jordan.
Yes, Kareem and Magic both have a case for being BETTER than Jordan, so of course they benefited from having each other and cancelled each other out for team impact at times. And yes Magic had more Finals MVPs, but Kareem has more season MVPs that both Michael and Magic.
I don't know what your criteria is for being more dominant because they both dominated at completely different aspects of the game. If you took away the scoring stats, Kareem still has all-star stats for rebounds and blocks, especially the first half of his career.
As for more influential... I don't know how you measure that. I guess you could say Michael spawned Kobe, but that would be like saying Kareem spawned Duncan... not going there.
As for impacting his team, yeah I guess Jordan gets that? Pippen was awfully close to a championship run without him, but didn't get it. Magic got to the Finals without Kareem, but couldn't do much with all his old roster gone and Scott and Worthy injured. I guess Jordan gets this one.
Jordan and Kareem are two of the greatest players ever. It's fine to take Michael over Kareem, but to downplay Jabbar's greatness and then oversell Jordan is just wrong.
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I'm not quoting that wikipedia page you just posted.Magic was not a good defender he has no case whatsoever for being better than jordan NONE AT ALL.NO HE DID NOT. That's a media fairy tale. See my other posts about Pippen. TLDR version: Pippen's 94 Bulls only loss 2 more games without Jordan, had a higher defensive rating and everyone enjoyed a higher shooting percentage with Pippen distributing the ball more evenly and in a timely manner regarding time on the shot clock. Pippen made Pippen and won in the playoffs without Jordan.
Yes he did and stop mentioning the media I'm not impressionable and let whitey dictated media control my thoughts.Pippen would not be a hall of fame player if he didn't play with jordan,pippen had no clutch in him he routinely froze up when the game was on the line his jumper was suspect as ? ,pippen had Finals where he was scoring 15-16 ppg and shooting 35% from the field,but he had that one great season in 94 when the bulls won 55 games with 3 all stars(pip,armstrong,grant) and steve kerr and kukoc added to a 3x championship team and lost in the 2nd round that everybody loves to bring up but they always forget the next season when the bulls were 34-31 and a 6 seed before mike returned.
Jordan led the league in scoring 10x,kareem 2x
Jordan career high 69 points,Kareem 55
Kareem dominated nothing he led the league in rebounds ONCE!!! How is he the Goat? based off what? influence? No,Dominance? No,6 championships and he was the best player for 2-3 of them what makes him the goat?
+ Mike has the highest scoring ppg in the playoffs,highest ppg ever,had better finals numbers,nba record for points scored in a playoff game,had 17 triple doubles in a season(7 in a row) and finished #1 in scoring and #10 in assists in the same season,led the league in scoring and won dpoy in the same year, 1st guard ever with 100 blocks and 200+ steals in a season. I aint even mention Jordan hitting game winning playoff series ending shots multiple shots to win closeout games and series.
basically
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50 point games Jordan 39 Kareem 10
60 point games Jordan 5,Kareem 0!!!!!
Nba final mvp's Jordan 6 Kareem 2
Just say "I prefer Kareem over jordan cuz he was a militant in the 60's-70's" there's no way in hell he's a better basketball player than mike compare kareem to wilt and them not the Goat.Jordan was more dominant,more versatile,won the same amount of titles as the alpha while kareem was 2nd fiddle for half his titles.We're done here -
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Tommy bilfiger wrote: »I'm not quoting that wikipedia page you just posted.Magic was not a good defender he has no case whatsoever for being better than jordan NONE AT ALL.NO HE DID NOT. That's a media fairy tale. See my other posts about Pippen. TLDR version: Pippen's 94 Bulls only loss 2 more games without Jordan, had a higher defensive rating and everyone enjoyed a higher shooting percentage with Pippen distributing the ball more evenly and in a timely manner regarding time on the shot clock. Pippen made Pippen and won in the playoffs without Jordan.
Yes he did and stop mentioning the media I'm not impressionable and let whitey dictated media control my thoughts.Pippen would not be a hall of fame player if he didn't play with jordan,pippen had no clutch in him he routinely froze up when the game was on the line his jumper was suspect as ? ,pippen had Finals where he was scoring 15-16 ppg and shooting 35% from the field,but he had that one great season in 94 when the bulls won 55 games with 3 all stars(pip,armstrong,grant) and steve kerr and kukoc added to a 3x championship team and lost in the 2nd round that everybody loves to bring up but they always forget the next season when the bulls were 34-31 and a 6 seed before mike returned.
This that ETHER, bruh...
Took the favorite argument against Jordan
(a shallow regular season record & a 2nd round exit) and absolutely obliterated it.
Y'all know the Toronto Raptors won close to 60 games last year, too right??? ...
... The TORONTO RAPTORS
50 Win season + 2nd Rd exit is not even comparable to what Jordan did with the Bulls in his Prime.
The "He needed Pippen" argument devaluing Jordan is terrible -
Kareem Abdul JabbarTommy bilfiger wrote: »50 point games Jordan 39 Kareem 10
60 point games Jordan 5,Kareem 0!!!!!
Nba final mvp's Jordan 6 Kareem 2
Just say "I prefer Kareem over jordan cuz he was a militant in the 60's-70's" there's no way in hell he's a better basketball player than mike compare kareem to wilt and them not the Goat. Jordan was more dominant,more versatile,won the same amount of titles as the alpha while kareem was 2nd fiddle for half his titles. We're done here
All Star Games Kareem 19 Jordan 14
Season MVP Kareem 6 Jordan 5
All NBA Teams Kareem 15 Jordan 11
Blocks Leader Kareem 4 Jordan 0
I can cherry pick stats too bro. Just the fact that I can also shows that Kareem is right up there with Jordan. We all know Jordan is the game's greatest scorer in the modern era, no one is arguing that. I don't care about Kareem's militancy, his name change, his acting, none of that ? . I'm just talking about basketball home skillet.
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Kareem Abdul JabbarYou can cherry pick stats all day but you can't deny that Kareem is the all time points leader.
Out of all the players that have ever played the game, Kareem has the most points.
Thats saying something. -
Michael Jeffrey Jordan6 Rings
6 Finals MVP
5 MVPs. None on a losing team that missed the playoffs.
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Michael Jeffrey JordanMJ 30.1 PPG
KAJ 24.4
? forgetting MJ was tied for number 1 in points PPG until he came back.
And MJ played less years with better accolades. -
Kareem has had a greater career, MJ had the bigger impact. What do prefer, the accomplishments which are tangible or do you go with the eye test.
I'm gonna go with accomplishments and say Kareem is the goat. I feel as if the who is the greatest debate is a generational thing. People who grew up on Russell, Wilt, Big O,etc will say they're the greatest. Kareems accomplishments are undeniable though. -
? need to stop using that ring argument in debates too, because i don't see what team accomplishments have to do with individual greatness. Too much ? goes into winning rings that's out of your control.
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Kareem Abdul JabbarKareem has had a greater career, MJ had the bigger impact. What do prefer, the accomplishments which are tangible or do you go with the eye test.
bolded is facts
the discussion is the greatest basketball player to ever live
Kareem won 3 titles in College where MJ was a role player behind Worthy and Perkins
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You can cherry pick stats all day but you can't deny that Kareem is the all time points leader.
Out of all the players that have ever played the game, Kareem has the most points.
Thats saying something.
You can't deny that if Mike never retired he would of blew that away too, you can't deny that Mike has more playoff points in 58 less games -
Kareem has had a greater career, MJ had the bigger impact. What do prefer, the accomplishments which are tangible or do you go with the eye test.
bolded is facts
the discussion is the greatest basketball player to ever live
Kareem won 3 titles in College where MJ was a role player behind Worthy and Perkins
Longer career, not better career, stop it -
Kareem Abdul Jabbar? need to stop using that ring argument in debates too, because i don't see what team accomplishments have to do with individual greatness. Too much ? goes into winning rings that's out of your control.
Co-Sign to the fullest. In Baseball and Football, ring logic is almost never given in any argument. People compare Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds based on their individual greatness. No one is going to sit there and say Hideki Matsui is a better outfielder than Ken Griffey Jr. because he got a ring and was the 09 World Series MVP.
Same with Football. No one in their right mind thinks Trent Dilfer is a better quarterback than Dan Marino, or Roger Craig is a better running back than Barry Sanders because of rings.
I know in basketball, a star can have more of an impact because of small rosters and playing offense and defense on the floor, but it is still a team game. Would anyone like to make the claim that Derek Fisher is a better player than John Stockton because of his 5 rings? Of course not...
But when it comes to Jordan... ESPN loves to tell you that 6 rings and 2 3peats are all that matter... Until you bring up Russell's 11 and his 8peat... Then it's about MVPs... Until you bring up Jabbar having more regular season MVPs... Then it's about scoring and ppg... Until you bring up Chamberlain... Then it's about Finals MVPs...
And don't bother talking about LeBron, because then it goes back to Rings... The narrative in mainstream media always changes to favor Jordan. If Lebron were to get 7 rings, 7 Finals MVPs, and 6 Season MVPs, the narrative would be "But he didn't get 10 scoring titles." If LeBron got those as well, then it would be "Well he never won defensive player of the year!"
And if, by some miracle, LeBron gets all the physical hardware that puts him above Jordan once and for all, Stephen A. would still be ? riding Jordan, saying "Jordan never played a game 7 in the Finals" or "Lebron is 7 for 11 and Michael is 6 for 6," as if getting to the Finals and losing is somehow a discredit and failure on LeBron's part, regardless of ? / under powered teams.
Again, Jordan is Top 5 in my personal list, but I just can't stand how basketball is the only sport that fails to acknowledge the progress and evolution of its game to protect its biggest commercial star of the past.
Jordan has become the Hulk Hogan of the NBA. Yes he was that dude 20 years ago, but because of the money he generates with his branding, no one else is allowed to get over and the new guys are always compared to him negatively.
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the_focused_one wrote: »? need to stop using that ring argument in debates too, because i don't see what team accomplishments have to do with individual greatness. Too much ? goes into winning rings that's out of your control.
Co-Sign to the fullest. In Baseball and Football, ring logic is almost never given in any argument. People compare Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds based on their individual greatness. No one is going to sit there and say Hideki Matsui is a better outfielder than Ken Griffey Jr. because he got a ring and was the 09 World Series MVP.
Same with Football. No one in their right mind thinks Trent Dilfer is a better quarterback than Dan Marino, or Roger Craig is a better running back than Barry Sanders because of rings.
I know in basketball, a star can have more of an impact because of small rosters and playing offense and defense on the floor, but it is still a team game. Would anyone like to make the claim that Derek Fisher is a better player than John Stockton because of his 5 rings? Of course not...
But when it comes to Jordan... ESPN loves to tell you that 6 rings and 2 3peats are all that matter... Until you bring up Russell's 11 and his 8peat... Then it's about MVPs... Until you bring up Jabbar having more regular season MVPs... Then it's about scoring and ppg... Until you bring up Chamberlain... Then it's about Finals MVPs...
And don't bother talking about LeBron, because then it goes back to Rings... The narrative in mainstream media always changes to favor Jordan. If Lebron were to get 7 rings, 7 Finals MVPs, and 6 Season MVPs, the narrative would be "But he didn't get 10 scoring titles." If LeBron got those as well, then it would be "Well he never won defensive player of the year!"
And if, by some miracle, LeBron gets all the physical hardware that puts him above Jordan once and for all, Stephen A. would still be ? riding Jordan, saying "Jordan never played a game 7 in the Finals" or "Lebron is 7 for 11 and Michael is 6 for 6," as if getting to the Finals and losing is somehow a discredit and failure on LeBron's part, regardless of ? / under powered teams.
Again, Jordan is Top 5 in my personal list, but I just can't stand how basketball is the only sport that fails to acknowledge the progress and evolution of its game to protect its biggest commercial star of the past.
Jordan has become the Hulk Hogan of the NBA. Yes he was that dude 20 years ago, but because of the money he generates with his branding, no one else is allowed to get over and the new guys are always compared to him negatively.
There's a lot more variables involved in those other sports, ok so you think winning shouldn't mean everything well Jordan's stats in 15 seasons are more impressive than Kareem's in 20, Jordan's stats in the playoffs when it mattered most in are more impressive, intangibles go to Jordan as well, 6 rings 6 MVP's to Kareem's 2 which means Jordan knew how to get the most out of his teammates, Kareem was carried to most of his, as a collective stats/rings/intangibles/impact Jordan trumps all period -
Kareem Abdul Jabbarits....JOHN B wrote: »
There's a lot more variables involved in those other sports, ok so you think winning shouldn't mean everything well Jordan's stats in 15 seasons are more impressive than Kareem's in 20
I don't necessarily disagree with this. But what about Russell being 11 for 13 with an 8-peat and 2 chips as a player coach? Why does no one talk about him as the GOAT if it's about winning it all? Literally no one has come close to these numbers. I mean the Finals MVP is NAMED after him...Jordan's stats in the playoffs when it mattered most in are more impressive, intangibles go to Jordan as well, 6 rings 6 MVP's to Kareem's 2 which means Jordan knew how to get the most out of his teammates, Kareem was carried to most of his, as a collective stats/rings/intangibles/impact Jordan trumps all period
See when you get into intangibles, you start inducing qualities based on the ring logic. The MVP award does not infer that you got the most out of your teammates. Andre Iguodala got the Finals MVP award last year because he put a significant lock on LeBron James and shifted the momentum of the entire series through his defense. Iggy didn't carry anyone- he just performed the one task that no one else could do and shined in his moment.
Anyone that objectively watched basketball back then will tell you that Jordan did not make his teammates better. Yes you can argue that Jordan brought Kerr and Paxon and Longley and others along for the ride, but Jordan did not make Pippen, Rodman, Grant, or Harper any better through his play. Jordan was a high volume shooter and scorer and made the most impact of everyone on the scoreboard, ON TOP of the fact that he was also a great perimeter defender. It was the combination of his amazing play on both sides of the court and the fact that his team won the finals that made him the MVP every time. He was the best player on the best team and owned in most of his finals series.
As for Kareem, in his later years, he did have a great cast, including a fellow top 5 player on his squad that was his point guard in Magic and another top 50 player as his forward in Worthy. The Lakers, especially with Magic, played much more selfless ball than the Bulls, so Kareem seldom needed to dominate to guarantee victory. Even in his last year, when the Pistons swept the Lakers in the finals, Kareem was averaging 12/5/2 on 26 minutes a game. He was hardly being "carried," even at 41 years old.
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And I agree with Russell not being considered more, I at least think it's an atrocity that Wilt was considered better because of stats, and even though some stats that would make Russ look a lot better weren't recorded then (blocks) the little bit that stats count in the argument he just doesn't have over Jordan, Jordan was pretty close to being as great a leader in a time the league lets just be honest was more talent heavy but also has the stats to show how dynamic a player he was on top of being a leader, Russ doesn't have the sexy stats but he was the centerpiece to each and every one of those rings but unfortunately intangibles don't show up on paper, casual fans just go straight to the stat sheet and the worst part is people like to bring up all the hall of famers Russ played with being the reason for those rings BUT I've seen posters say they would of beat Cousy one on one if they played at that time, I've never heard anyone bring up Sam Jones, KC Jones, Tommy Heinsohn, etc... in goat debates, in that time frame there weren't a lot of teams the level of competition was the same the difference is Russ elevated his players to hof status and Wilt didn't, the great Wilt Chamberlain got traded twice because he was a detriment to his teams, he would stop playing defense because he was scared to foul out of games, Wilt was obsessed with stats Russ was obsessed with winning and to me winning is everything and it's just too lopsided in that department
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Michael Jeffrey JordanIt's more talent in the league today than in the 90s
It was better big men but not overall more talent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT3MH8876YI
