Worthless degrees...
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konceptjones wrote: »ISDS or any 4 year IT degree. Get some certs now
This is true and false.
Can you get into IT without a degree? Yes, you can self teach yourself how to program, test, design databases etc..
But more than likely you will be jumping contract to contract because most companies wont hire a permanent worker without a degree.
Can you make a lot of money without a degree? Yes. 70-100k after a few years of experience.
But will you make as much as people with degrees? No.
Can you move up to management roles without a degree? Very rarely.
So in conclusion, for those who are interested, you should self teach and get certs to get your start in the tech field, and as soon as your in, go for a Computer Science degree. In this way you can live comfortably while going to school, and pay school out of pocket and never have student loans, and once your done you dont have the disadvantage of not having a degree.
Best of both worlds.
PM's don't need degrees.
I don't have a degree and I can command anywhere from $60/hr-$90/hr these days depending on what it is I'm doing. The rarer the skillset, the more I charge.
I've also been hired as an employee at several companies I worked for. The longest of which was the defense company I mentioned (6 years).
Also, I walked in the door making almost 90k a year with less than 6 years of professional experience under my belt (started on the helpdesk now we're here!). It's all about whether what you bring to the table is valuable to the company, degree or not.
Truthfully you typically make more per hour on contracts. I've had a number of contracts that were supposed to go perm, but the conversion rate meant taking a pay cut.
Its all good and well, but, you talking only numbers on paper.
Contractors typically make 3-5 dollars per hour more. But, they get 0 benefits. That means when there is a holiday and the company closes, you not getting paid. That also means you have no paid vacation, so if you take a week off for a vacation, you dont get paid. Also, you dont get any health insurance, so you either paying $300-$400 a month for health care, without a kid, or paying the obama care penalty at the end of the year. Also, as a contractor youre not eligible for the bonus that permanent workers are gonna get. Not to mention, permanent workers get 401k options with companies typically matching 6-9%, and on a 100k a year salary, thats 6-9k contractors arent getting.
So yea, you can go off the $3-5 more that contractors make upfront, but once all the numbers are crunched, perm workers are gonna be making more.
Plus you are talking about your success as the example. I was going off what happens generally to most workers.
I cant use myself as an example because im really good at what I do and im very successful. I started with a starting salary of a person with 10+ years of experience without a degree, and Ive only went up from there. I can work from home in my boxers for months without anyone seeing my face at work but theyll still be cleaning my office every day to make sure its pristine incase I come in.
And all this without a degree, yet, im currently working on it.
But lets keep it a 100 for people who might be interested in the field and talk about what happens in general.
Anyone can get into IT without a degree, but on average people with degrees will always go further and easier too.
Not sure which contracting companies you've worked for, but the spots I've worked for have insurance for their contractors.
Not every company gives out bonuses to their employees at the end of the year. I worked for one of the largest banks in the world and not once got a bonus. I worked for a division of the single largest ad/marketing company in the world and, yup, no bonuses. The defense contractor I worked for only gave out "merit" bonuses to employees that were recommended by their management as having gone above and beyond during the course of that year... and its only $100. I got it my first two years in a row and after that I didn't care about it.
Contract to perm I've seen pay drops as much as $15-20/hr less than what you're getting on a contract. A group of about 20 us were brought into one company because they had no security dept whatsoever. We were all making $60/hr except for the director that was brought in as a contractor; he was clearing at least $70/hr. On conversion they offered me the equivalent of a hair over $40/hr AND the health insurance through the company cost more than what I was paying through the contract company. When word spread about the meager conversion rates a lot of the cats I worked with dipped. The director actually went through with the conversion only to quit 3 months later when he was offered a better gig in San Fran. I left when the contract period was up and got another job. -
I need to finish up my bachelors in nursing. I then want to head to med school to become an md, and fulfill my dreams becoming a psychiatrist.
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konceptjones wrote: »konceptjones wrote: »ISDS or any 4 year IT degree. Get some certs now
This is true and false.
Can you get into IT without a degree? Yes, you can self teach yourself how to program, test, design databases etc..
But more than likely you will be jumping contract to contract because most companies wont hire a permanent worker without a degree.
Can you make a lot of money without a degree? Yes. 70-100k after a few years of experience.
But will you make as much as people with degrees? No.
Can you move up to management roles without a degree? Very rarely.
So in conclusion, for those who are interested, you should self teach and get certs to get your start in the tech field, and as soon as your in, go for a Computer Science degree. In this way you can live comfortably while going to school, and pay school out of pocket and never have student loans, and once your done you dont have the disadvantage of not having a degree.
Best of both worlds.
PM's don't need degrees.
I don't have a degree and I can command anywhere from $60/hr-$90/hr these days depending on what it is I'm doing. The rarer the skillset, the more I charge.
I've also been hired as an employee at several companies I worked for. The longest of which was the defense company I mentioned (6 years).
Also, I walked in the door making almost 90k a year with less than 6 years of professional experience under my belt (started on the helpdesk now we're here!). It's all about whether what you bring to the table is valuable to the company, degree or not.
Truthfully you typically make more per hour on contracts. I've had a number of contracts that were supposed to go perm, but the conversion rate meant taking a pay cut.
Its all good and well, but, you talking only numbers on paper.
Contractors typically make 3-5 dollars per hour more. But, they get 0 benefits. That means when there is a holiday and the company closes, you not getting paid. That also means you have no paid vacation, so if you take a week off for a vacation, you dont get paid. Also, you dont get any health insurance, so you either paying $300-$400 a month for health care, without a kid, or paying the obama care penalty at the end of the year. Also, as a contractor youre not eligible for the bonus that permanent workers are gonna get. Not to mention, permanent workers get 401k options with companies typically matching 6-9%, and on a 100k a year salary, thats 6-9k contractors arent getting.
So yea, you can go off the $3-5 more that contractors make upfront, but once all the numbers are crunched, perm workers are gonna be making more.
Plus you are talking about your success as the example. I was going off what happens generally to most workers.
I cant use myself as an example because im really good at what I do and im very successful. I started with a starting salary of a person with 10+ years of experience without a degree, and Ive only went up from there. I can work from home in my boxers for months without anyone seeing my face at work but theyll still be cleaning my office every day to make sure its pristine incase I come in.
And all this without a degree, yet, im currently working on it.
But lets keep it a 100 for people who might be interested in the field and talk about what happens in general.
Anyone can get into IT without a degree, but on average people with degrees will always go further and easier too.
Not sure which contracting companies you've worked for, but the spots I've worked for have insurance for their contractors.
Not every company gives out bonuses to their employees at the end of the year. I worked for one of the largest banks in the world and not once got a bonus. I worked for a division of the single largest ad/marketing company in the world and, yup, no bonuses. The defense contractor I worked for only gave out "merit" bonuses to employees that were recommended by their management as having gone above and beyond during the course of that year... and its only $100. I got it my first two years in a row and after that I didn't care about it.
Contract to perm I've seen pay drops as much as $15-20/hr less than what you're getting on a contract. A group of about 20 us were brought into one company because they had no security dept whatsoever. We were all making $60/hr except for the director that was brought in as a contractor; he was clearing at least $70/hr. On conversion they offered me the equivalent of a hair over $40/hr AND the health insurance through the company cost more than what I was paying through the contract company. When word spread about the meager conversion rates a lot of the cats I worked with dipped. The director actually went through with the conversion only to quit 3 months later when he was offered a better gig in San Fran. I left when the contract period was up and got another job.
It just might be that we are in different parts of the country.
Every company ive worked for has offered bonuses, and, ive worked for the top two biggest banks in the US and got a 10% bonus from both. Chances are we worked for the same bank, so its funny I got a bonus and you didnt.
Also, it might be the department. I been involved in Software Engineer, qa, ba, and developing. Never worked in anything security related. It might be that.
Also, every contracting company i worked for offered insurance, but it was basically same price and service you got on the obamacare market. So yea, you can get insurance, but perm insurance will be better and cheaper.
And, $15-20 more for contracting is really rare from my experiences. Im used to seeing people get $45 for a contract if perms are getting $40, or something in that range.
Ive only worked on the east coast though, NY, NJ, and NC particularly, so that might be a main reason why our experiences are so different -
How much do those IT certifications run you?
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Degrees are definitely ceiling breakers. Yeah, you don't need one to be successful, but advancing in a particular field is much easier with one.
I'm in accounting at a major corporation and if you don't have a degree you're capped at 50k. With a degree the sky's the limit. Then though the degree has to be in accounting, finance, or business so the type does matter sometimes. -
konceptjones wrote: »konceptjones wrote: »ISDS or any 4 year IT degree. Get some certs now
This is true and false.
Can you get into IT without a degree? Yes, you can self teach yourself how to program, test, design databases etc..
But more than likely you will be jumping contract to contract because most companies wont hire a permanent worker without a degree.
Can you make a lot of money without a degree? Yes. 70-100k after a few years of experience.
But will you make as much as people with degrees? No.
Can you move up to management roles without a degree? Very rarely.
So in conclusion, for those who are interested, you should self teach and get certs to get your start in the tech field, and as soon as your in, go for a Computer Science degree. In this way you can live comfortably while going to school, and pay school out of pocket and never have student loans, and once your done you dont have the disadvantage of not having a degree.
Best of both worlds.
PM's don't need degrees.
I don't have a degree and I can command anywhere from $60/hr-$90/hr these days depending on what it is I'm doing. The rarer the skillset, the more I charge.
I've also been hired as an employee at several companies I worked for. The longest of which was the defense company I mentioned (6 years).
Also, I walked in the door making almost 90k a year with less than 6 years of professional experience under my belt (started on the helpdesk now we're here!). It's all about whether what you bring to the table is valuable to the company, degree or not.
Truthfully you typically make more per hour on contracts. I've had a number of contracts that were supposed to go perm, but the conversion rate meant taking a pay cut.
Its all good and well, but, you talking only numbers on paper.
Contractors typically make 3-5 dollars per hour more. But, they get 0 benefits. That means when there is a holiday and the company closes, you not getting paid. That also means you have no paid vacation, so if you take a week off for a vacation, you dont get paid. Also, you dont get any health insurance, so you either paying $300-$400 a month for health care, without a kid, or paying the obama care penalty at the end of the year. Also, as a contractor youre not eligible for the bonus that permanent workers are gonna get. Not to mention, permanent workers get 401k options with companies typically matching 6-9%, and on a 100k a year salary, thats 6-9k contractors arent getting.
So yea, you can go off the $3-5 more that contractors make upfront, but once all the numbers are crunched, perm workers are gonna be making more.
Plus you are talking about your success as the example. I was going off what happens generally to most workers.
I cant use myself as an example because im really good at what I do and im very successful. I started with a starting salary of a person with 10+ years of experience without a degree, and Ive only went up from there. I can work from home in my boxers for months without anyone seeing my face at work but theyll still be cleaning my office every day to make sure its pristine incase I come in.
And all this without a degree, yet, im currently working on it.
But lets keep it a 100 for people who might be interested in the field and talk about what happens in general.
Anyone can get into IT without a degree, but on average people with degrees will always go further and easier too.
Not sure which contracting companies you've worked for, but the spots I've worked for have insurance for their contractors.
Not every company gives out bonuses to their employees at the end of the year. I worked for one of the largest banks in the world and not once got a bonus. I worked for a division of the single largest ad/marketing company in the world and, yup, no bonuses. The defense contractor I worked for only gave out "merit" bonuses to employees that were recommended by their management as having gone above and beyond during the course of that year... and its only $100. I got it my first two years in a row and after that I didn't care about it.
Contract to perm I've seen pay drops as much as $15-20/hr less than what you're getting on a contract. A group of about 20 us were brought into one company because they had no security dept whatsoever. We were all making $60/hr except for the director that was brought in as a contractor; he was clearing at least $70/hr. On conversion they offered me the equivalent of a hair over $40/hr AND the health insurance through the company cost more than what I was paying through the contract company. When word spread about the meager conversion rates a lot of the cats I worked with dipped. The director actually went through with the conversion only to quit 3 months later when he was offered a better gig in San Fran. I left when the contract period was up and got another job.
It just might be that we are in different parts of the country.
Every company ive worked for has offered bonuses, and, ive worked for the top two biggest banks in the US and got a 10% bonus from both. Chances are we worked for the same bank, so its funny I got a bonus and you didnt.
Also, it might be the department. I been involved in Software Engineer, qa, ba, and developing. Never worked in anything security related. It might be that.
Also, every contracting company i worked for offered insurance, but it was basically same price and service you got on the obamacare market. So yea, you can get insurance, but perm insurance will be better and cheaper.
And, $15-20 more for contracting is really rare from my experiences. Im used to seeing people get $45 for a contract if perms are getting $40, or something in that range.
Ive only worked on the east coast though, NY, NJ, and NC particularly, so that might be a main reason why our experiences are so different
The bank I worked for wasn't and American bank. It's based out of Europe. Back when I worked for them, they were ranked in either the top 10 or top 15 largest banks in the world. If you worked for an American bank, it wasn't the same. -
ISDS or any 4 year IT degree. Get some certs now
Well I wont go that far. My wife is a programmer and you arent get in without a 4 year degree. Hell computer science degree start off at 84,000 a year. -
lord nemesis wrote: »How much do those IT certifications run you?
Anywhere between $100 and $1400 depending on what u choose. -
konceptjones wrote: »konceptjones wrote: »konceptjones wrote: »ISDS or any 4 year IT degree. Get some certs now
This is true and false.
Can you get into IT without a degree? Yes, you can self teach yourself how to program, test, design databases etc..
But more than likely you will be jumping contract to contract because most companies wont hire a permanent worker without a degree.
Can you make a lot of money without a degree? Yes. 70-100k after a few years of experience.
But will you make as much as people with degrees? No.
Can you move up to management roles without a degree? Very rarely.
So in conclusion, for those who are interested, you should self teach and get certs to get your start in the tech field, and as soon as your in, go for a Computer Science degree. In this way you can live comfortably while going to school, and pay school out of pocket and never have student loans, and once your done you dont have the disadvantage of not having a degree.
Best of both worlds.
PM's don't need degrees.
I don't have a degree and I can command anywhere from $60/hr-$90/hr these days depending on what it is I'm doing. The rarer the skillset, the more I charge.
I've also been hired as an employee at several companies I worked for. The longest of which was the defense company I mentioned (6 years).
Also, I walked in the door making almost 90k a year with less than 6 years of professional experience under my belt (started on the helpdesk now we're here!). It's all about whether what you bring to the table is valuable to the company, degree or not.
Truthfully you typically make more per hour on contracts. I've had a number of contracts that were supposed to go perm, but the conversion rate meant taking a pay cut.
Its all good and well, but, you talking only numbers on paper.
Contractors typically make 3-5 dollars per hour more. But, they get 0 benefits. That means when there is a holiday and the company closes, you not getting paid. That also means you have no paid vacation, so if you take a week off for a vacation, you dont get paid. Also, you dont get any health insurance, so you either paying $300-$400 a month for health care, without a kid, or paying the obama care penalty at the end of the year. Also, as a contractor youre not eligible for the bonus that permanent workers are gonna get. Not to mention, permanent workers get 401k options with companies typically matching 6-9%, and on a 100k a year salary, thats 6-9k contractors arent getting.
So yea, you can go off the $3-5 more that contractors make upfront, but once all the numbers are crunched, perm workers are gonna be making more.
Plus you are talking about your success as the example. I was going off what happens generally to most workers.
I cant use myself as an example because im really good at what I do and im very successful. I started with a starting salary of a person with 10+ years of experience without a degree, and Ive only went up from there. I can work from home in my boxers for months without anyone seeing my face at work but theyll still be cleaning my office every day to make sure its pristine incase I come in.
And all this without a degree, yet, im currently working on it.
But lets keep it a 100 for people who might be interested in the field and talk about what happens in general.
Anyone can get into IT without a degree, but on average people with degrees will always go further and easier too.
Not sure which contracting companies you've worked for, but the spots I've worked for have insurance for their contractors.
Not every company gives out bonuses to their employees at the end of the year. I worked for one of the largest banks in the world and not once got a bonus. I worked for a division of the single largest ad/marketing company in the world and, yup, no bonuses. The defense contractor I worked for only gave out "merit" bonuses to employees that were recommended by their management as having gone above and beyond during the course of that year... and its only $100. I got it my first two years in a row and after that I didn't care about it.
Contract to perm I've seen pay drops as much as $15-20/hr less than what you're getting on a contract. A group of about 20 us were brought into one company because they had no security dept whatsoever. We were all making $60/hr except for the director that was brought in as a contractor; he was clearing at least $70/hr. On conversion they offered me the equivalent of a hair over $40/hr AND the health insurance through the company cost more than what I was paying through the contract company. When word spread about the meager conversion rates a lot of the cats I worked with dipped. The director actually went through with the conversion only to quit 3 months later when he was offered a better gig in San Fran. I left when the contract period was up and got another job.
It just might be that we are in different parts of the country.
Every company ive worked for has offered bonuses, and, ive worked for the top two biggest banks in the US and got a 10% bonus from both. Chances are we worked for the same bank, so its funny I got a bonus and you didnt.
Also, it might be the department. I been involved in Software Engineer, qa, ba, and developing. Never worked in anything security related. It might be that.
Also, every contracting company i worked for offered insurance, but it was basically same price and service you got on the obamacare market. So yea, you can get insurance, but perm insurance will be better and cheaper.
And, $15-20 more for contracting is really rare from my experiences. Im used to seeing people get $45 for a contract if perms are getting $40, or something in that range.
Ive only worked on the east coast though, NY, NJ, and NC particularly, so that might be a main reason why our experiences are so different
The bank I worked for wasn't and American bank. It's based out of Europe. Back when I worked for them, they were ranked in either the top 10 or top 15 largest banks in the world. If you worked for an American bank, it wasn't the same.
Yea, both banks I worked for were American.
Interviewed with the bank of tokyo in Manhattan once but them cats was weird and didnt come up to match what I was asking. -
In IT, its really about if you have the knowledge or not. I got in without a degree or certs. Told a few lies to get in, but its whatever.
Some dude I know taught himself how to code in c++, developep a game from scratch, went into the interview and just showed them the game he developed and got hired on the spot starting for 120k.
Once in though having a degree will make it much easier to mantain and grow in the company was the point I was trying to make. -
Btw, I still dont have any certs or a degree.
Finally starting working on my bachelors though. -
In a minute all of em.
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Degrees are the LONG game.
They don't immediately pay dividends. Most people not sniffing no six figures right out of college. Most cats start right at the bottom making 40K-60K a year.
If you are one of those people that make more you are the exception not the rule.
Most of the time you end up with tremendous debt from attending a four year college as well unless you were on a scholarship or paid out of pocket.
Over time though if you are in your "degree" field it will help you excel within your profession where as most of those people without that degree will flame out or reach a glass ceiling unless they're exceptionally proficient at their skill or they know someone whose willing to grant them favoritism.
Its not a quick process sometimes you might have to put in work 10, 15, and 20 years and get experience, build your resume, etc. Most people particularly younger cats want instant gratification and to count stakes right out the gate and it doesn't work like that for most.
Many want that reward, but it's a process that goes along with that for most. -
Sage Wonder wrote: »Worthless degrees? 40. Cuz don't nobody give a ? about no 40 degree weather.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ttbQTz8tAE -
I'll tell you which degree is ? worthless. NATURAL RESOURCES. ? nobody give a ? about wildlife n ? unless its in another country AND its cute. I can tell you what kinda frog is making that sound you're hearing tho.
Also, communications, gender studies, most sociology degrees, art degrees -
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Sociology, psychology, anthropology, criminal justice were some of my fav classes. All worthless.
The people that ? on sociology are the people who never took the time to learn how to do rigorous social science and learn statistics and proper quantitative methods. -
Sandinista wrote: »Useful 4 year degrees:
1. Business / Business Administation: BY FAR the most useful four year degree there is. You can parlay this into any job: sales, management, investment, etc
2. Foreign Languages: every single large organization in the country right now...be It healthcare / hospitals, corporations, the federal government...needs translators and interpreters. Get some education classes under your belt and you can teach too.
3. Computer sciences: it's a no brainer. Computers are everywhere in our society now and having formal education in programming, software design, digital security etc will almost guarantee employment.
4. Engineering. This is another no brainer. There are no unemployed engineers, whether they be electrical, computer, Civil or mechanical.
Caveat: they're often not 4 year programs. May need an extra year in. But worth it.
Somewhat Useful 4 year Degrees:
1. All the STEM degrees. Don't get me wrong. Sciences are hot and you can make a career from them. But pretty much ALL of them require more education beyond a Bachelor's if you want to be competitive. Physics, biology, chemistry, biochem...if all you have is a BS then all you're gonna get are high school teaching jobs or lab assistant jobs.
Go for the Ph Ds tho and you're golden.
2. Sociology / Social Work. You can get jobs with these but the jobs pay ? , are grueling and there's very little room for upward mobility. Only follow if it's a passion
Useless 4 Year degrees:
1. ALL Art degrees. Sorry. If you got talent you got talent and you don't need a diploma to prove it to buyers. Your product would sell itself. This goes for Art History too.
2. Philosophy. You can get exactly ONE job with a philosophy degree: teaching philosophy in college to other ? .
3. Communications: I have no idea what this Degree gets you. Everyone I know in radio, broadcasting and TV / Movie production has degrees in other ? .
Somewhat Useless 4 Year Degrees:
1. History / Anthropology / Psychology / Education, etc. These degrees are "somewhat" useless because they're employable but very very limited in their scope. You usually can get one type of job with it and that's it.
You're wrong about philosophy btw. Out of all art majors, philosophy tend to be among the highest paid, eclipsing economists in a lot of cases.
Entry pay is bad, but around the 10 year mark their pay becomes among the best. -
lord nemesis wrote: »How much do those IT certifications run you?
Depends on the cert
The one I'm taking now is about $1000 to take but it will pay for itself in the long run
CEH used to be $500 3 months ago lol -
Sage Wonder wrote: »Worthless degrees? 40. Cuz don't nobody give a ? about no 40 degree weather.
you couldn't be more wrong.
In Michigan, after several long months of zero and sub-zero temps with arctic wind chill, a sunny 40 degree day with no wind is the temp where people actually drop the top on the ride and come out jogging in shorts and ? . -
konceptjones wrote: »Sage Wonder wrote: »Worthless degrees? 40. Cuz don't nobody give a ? about no 40 degree weather.
you couldn't be more wrong.
In Michigan, after several long months of zero and sub-zero temps with arctic wind chill, a sunny 40 degree day with no wind is the temp where people actually drop the top on the ride and come out jogging in shorts and ? .
It's a Wire quote.. hold this L champ. -
konceptjones wrote: »Sage Wonder wrote: »Worthless degrees? 40. Cuz don't nobody give a ? about no 40 degree weather.
you couldn't be more wrong.
In Michigan, after several long months of zero and sub-zero temps with arctic wind chill, a sunny 40 degree day with no wind is the temp where people actually drop the top on the ride and come out jogging in shorts and ? .
Man... I don't know how y'all do it. 40 degrees I'm callin in sick to work and stayin in the house with the heater on BLAST -
Sage Wonder wrote: »konceptjones wrote: »Sage Wonder wrote: »Worthless degrees? 40. Cuz don't nobody give a ? about no 40 degree weather.
you couldn't be more wrong.
In Michigan, after several long months of zero and sub-zero temps with arctic wind chill, a sunny 40 degree day with no wind is the temp where people actually drop the top on the ride and come out jogging in shorts and ? .
It's a Wire quote.. hold this L champ.
"watched 5 episodes of The Wire" post.
Stopped watching after they figured out how the pager codes worked. -
All short-term thinking individuals without a degree that think 'oh I make $20/hour now ? I need a degree for' will still make that same $20/hour fifteen years from now and the years of hard labor will show with back pain and ashy knuckles.
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I got a Communications degree. I work in Corrections now.
Edit: Corrections pays me well. No complaints. Big ups to all the skilled tradesmen. College isnt the answer for everyone. I tell all the Young teens that I know to enter a trade program.
