Straight Black Men Are the White People of Black People
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Shuffington wrote: »2stepz_ahead wrote: »Shuffington wrote: »Ajackson17 wrote: »
The only necessary and correct response to a Black woman’s lamentations is to listen. It is not to dismiss or find offense. It is not to center your own feelings and plight. It is not to rebut, refute, or refuse to accept. It is to hear her, make amends, and help her move through the pain. Whether you agree or not, recognize these concerns or not, experience these same grievances or not, are a woman yourself or not, this is the modus operandi. I have learned from this exchange that Black women are all we got, save a selection of Black men we can depend on as allies. (I’m so thankful my partner is my ally and is not above introspection and criticism; that he recognizes and maximizes his minimal privilege for my benefit and that of other Black women.) But, just like with White people, Black women must wear a guard of protection when encountering Black men until they prove themselves to be a safe place.
Theres a famous quote by Stephen R. Covey
Understanding the nature of a forum is to reply, I think it took like 10 pages( out of those people who engaged) for someone to ask a question or step outside of themselves and be inquisitive.We typically seek first to be understood. Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply. They're either speaking or preparing to speak. They're filtering everything through their own paradigms, reading their autobiography into other people's lives.
I find that the bolded is the best answer for the grievances that are being expressed.
While I was a little perked up by the subject title, I wasn't really offended. As I reflected on my personal interactions with women that I've encountered in my walk of life.... I realize they've all been relatively pleasant no matter how close or far the relationship. I can confidently say that most of the women whom i engaged with/ girlfriends / coworkers (excluding moms because she's a given) had my back, and probably still will have my back.
With the amount of cringe worthy comments in this thread, I think deep down, they're guys in here that feel like "? .. if I don't control these "b*tches," they will destroy me". Like to the point where they take all grievances as personal attacks.... like "some white people" do.
while they're some wild women out their that aint ? , the key to discernment is listening with an intent to understand.
but I get it, engaging discourse with an intent to understand our counterpart is something not everyone is here for.
problem here is each side is blaming the other for not listening and thats how we are here.
but ...there is another problem...
People dont listen to themselves or what they say to another person.
or they choose not to correct themselves when they are wrong with what thy say.
i know i had many fights with women i dated simply over the fact i either had to take on baggage from another ? or live up to the expectation of their ideal ? .
what is a person to do in that situation? cuz they both revolve around you aint ? .
and some people dont like inquisitive people...they think they are up to something or shut down.
then we get into acknowledgement..
how many people appreciate the small things. how many acknowledge the small things? how many people think they shouldnt have to because thats the way it should be?
At the end of the day, we all have our own personal hang-ups.
Theres a time tho, when you have to recognize that some people are just toxic human beings.
When it comes to issues where women do not feel empowered, safe, and or validated, that might be a good time
to listen. My girl talks about how when she's at work, the older black men that she works with talk over her. They assume that she's their daughter or little sister. She can assume a more assertive stance but she will then be classified as the "Mean B*tch". They constantly ask her when is she going to get married. They assume that she should be in a traditional marriage with kids at her age. In subtle ways they insinuate that she's invalid because she hasn't reach the antiquated specific expectations on where they feel, a woman like her should be in her life. Of course women in general make snide comments like this to each other as well, but I think when it comes from a male it can come off as "controlling" and possessive.
It can also be tiresome to constantly ignore comments like those on a weekly basis.
Issues like these have a way of creeping into my life. Clearly, I can't solve them for her, I can only listen and provide the best direction that I think, makes sense for her and her future.
It's a different story when your girl is voicing her particular concerns about dudes at her job vs generalizing about all Black men. A more accurate comparison would be if she came home and blamed you for it - on some "why Black men always talk over Black women and treat us like how white people treat Black people ?"... I'm sure your reaction would be to do something other than 'just listen'. -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »Ajackson17 wrote: »
Yo, one of the callers said some real ? . He said the relationship between black men and black women has turned into a war that has problems coming from both sides and that the only difference is that black women have white supremacy on their side and black men don't.
*sigh*
when ppl say things like this is suggests blk man aren't capable of propagating, perpetuating and profiting from white supremacy same as blk women ...which is definitely not the case
and it suggests blk women don't suffer at the hands of white supremacy.... or don't stand to lose anything when we do the work of our oppressors
it's ridiculous
blk men like sheriff david clarke and ben carson have done and said things in service of the trump white house that will negatively impact the lives of both blk women and blk men
ben carson's stint at the HUD will disproportionately impact the living situation of blk mothers and their children. what is to happen to them if he continues to cut funding and gut the department
the blk men who chase after patriarchy do us all no favors
blk men, some of a higher profile like tommy sotomayor, who spew anti-blk woman rhetoric that only serves to elevate non blk women do us all no favors
But that's not at all what the caller said. He didn't say black women promote white supremacy and black men don't. He said black women have white supremacy on their side (in the fight between black men and women) and black men don't. He was summarizing the professor's statements about how many feminist criticisms of black men are just updated versions of the stereotypes that white supremacists used.
He gave several examples of things, but I'll just point out one. During the video, a person in their live chat, likely a feminist, claimed that black men were killing black women en masse. The professor asked what the woman meant by that and then proceeded to point out that only around 100-300 black women are killed yearly in domestic disputes. He also referenced statistics that show that only around 30 fewer black men are killed every year in domestic disputes than black women. I know you feminists don't do well with numbers, but surely you'd agree 300 a year out of the millions of black women living in this country doesn't equate to en masse. His point was that such feminist rhetoric is not really based in reality at all. It actually just comes from racist stereotypes about black men that used to be promoted widely by whites. That's what the caller meant by black women (mostly feminists) being backed by white supremacy. Some of you are quite literally taking up where many of the debunked white supremacists left off. Ironically, if what he's saying is true that would mean that black feminists are really the white people of black people.
Also, I'd like to point out that even on this site where there seems to be some legitimate hate by some for black women, dudes like Tommy Sotomayor are looked at as clowns. Not to mention that the last we saw of him, he went to some black seminar and didn't get a pat on the back for telling the truth about black ? . No he got punched in the face for disrespecting "black queens." When is the last time one of you "moderate" feminists publicly checked an extremist for male bashing? More often than not, even when you supposedly don't agree with the extremists, you still seem to bend over backwards to try and rationalize their statements.
we live in a white male dominated society....
realize most white supremacist groups advocate not just white supremacy, but more specifically white male supremacy. the alt-rigtht movement, for example, feeds on “toxic resentment of women”, and that sexism serves as a wall to attract young men into it. and the women who embrace alt-right and support white supremacists like trump actually welcome their own subordination
that said, many blk male criticisms of black women are also just updated versions of the stereotypes and talking points that white supremacists, who advocate for white male supremacy in particular, have historically used to divide us and subjugate women
so yes blk men too have white supremacy on their side when they spew anti-blk woman rhetoric i.e. blk women are domineering, hyper sexual, irresponsible mothers, etc
even when blk men push perpetuate this narrative that feminism has destroyed the family or has brainwashed women, again these are old talking points of those who want to preserve the social hierarchy where straight white men remain on top.
and just because you don't see me or other feminists take to task the women who spew garbage like all blk men are women beaters doesn't mean it doesn't happen... but yes blk women and blk feminist in particular can we be more vocal to push back against ppl who call themselves feminist but have another agenda besides gender equality -
Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »
we live in a white male dominated society....
realize most white supremacist groups advocate not just white supremacy, but more specifically white male supremacy. the alt-rigtht movement, for example, feeds on “toxic resentment of women”, and that sexism serves as a wall to attract young men into it. and the women who embrace alt-right and support white supremacists like trump actually welcome their own subordination
that said, many blk male criticisms of black women are also just updated versions of the stereotypes and talking points that white supremacists, who advocate for white male supremacy in particular, have historically used to divide us and subjugate women
so yes blk men too have white supremacy on their side when they spew anti-blk woman rhetoric i.e. blk women are domineering, hyper sexual, irresponsible mothers, etc
even when blk men push perpetuate this narrative that feminism has destroyed the family or has brainwashed women, again these are old talking points of those who want to preserve the social hierarchy where straight white men remain on top.
and just because you don't see me or other feminists take to task the women who spew garbage like all blk men are women beaters doesn't mean it doesn't happen... but yes blk women and blk feminist in particular can we be more vocal to push back against ppl who call themselves feminist but have another agenda besides gender equality
Again, the point that the professor was getting at is that black feminism is a movement, and within that movement there is a lot of "truth" being put out there that really is just a demonization of black men borrowing from the tactics used by white supremacists. Can you really say there is some organized movement by and for black men that uses harmful stereotypes to tear down black women in an effort to uplift black men? And if you can point to such a movement, is it anywhere near as popular as black feminism? I don't think there is. We're not just talking about the stupid comments from individuals here. We're talking about a massive propaganda movement by one group from within the black community directed towards another group from within the black community.
And another point they brought up that I continue to bring up in these topics is that it makes no sense for black feminists to continually say that black women are the most oppressed group when pretty much every metric out there shows that black women are doing better in every area than black men. Can you tell me any other situation where the people at the bottom of the barrel are criticized for not doing more to uplift people that are above them? lol That doesn't even make sense. -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »
we live in a white male dominated society....
realize most white supremacist groups advocate not just white supremacy, but more specifically white male supremacy. the alt-rigtht movement, for example, feeds on “toxic resentment of women”, and that sexism serves as a wall to attract young men into it. and the women who embrace alt-right and support white supremacists like trump actually welcome their own subordination
that said, many blk male criticisms of black women are also just updated versions of the stereotypes and talking points that white supremacists, who advocate for white male supremacy in particular, have historically used to divide us and subjugate women
so yes blk men too have white supremacy on their side when they spew anti-blk woman rhetoric i.e. blk women are domineering, hyper sexual, irresponsible mothers, etc
even when blk men push perpetuate this narrative that feminism has destroyed the family or has brainwashed women, again these are old talking points of those who want to preserve the social hierarchy where straight white men remain on top.
and just because you don't see me or other feminists take to task the women who spew garbage like all blk men are women beaters doesn't mean it doesn't happen... but yes blk women and blk feminist in particular can we be more vocal to push back against ppl who call themselves feminist but have another agenda besides gender equality
Again, the point that the professor was getting at is that black feminism is a movement and within that movement, and within that movement there is a lot of "truth" being put out there that really is just a demonization of black men borrowing from the tactics used by white supremacists. Can you really say there is some organized movement by and for black men that uses harmful stereotypes to tear down black women in an effort to uplift black men? And if you can point to such a movement, is it anywhere near as popular as black feminism? I don't there is. We're not just talking about the stupid comments from individuals here. We're talking about a massive propaganda movement by one group from within the black community directed towards another group from within the black community.
a few individuals?
we have religious constitutions and hip hop culture, which are mostly dominated by blk men, that advocate for patriarchy and/or encourage misogyny
clowns like tommy sotomayor have a large following and have obtained a platform that can reach millions
lil wayne who talked down on the goals of BLM and talked down on blk women has influence over millions
and you equivalating feminism with white supremacy ...they are not one and the same...feminism is the advocacy of gender equality and women's rights
are there some white supremacists who call themselves feminists, yes, and do some feminist perpetuate anti-blk stereotypes and contribute to racism but they do not have sole ownership over the movement or word
but again yes blk women and blk feminist in particular can we be more vocal to push back against ppl who call themselves feminist but have another agenda besides gender equality
this is good read. if you would care to do so
https://www.salon.com/2017/09/02/memo-to-white-feminists-it-is-our-job-to-dismantle-white-supremacy-now/ -
Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »
we live in a white male dominated society....
realize most white supremacist groups advocate not just white supremacy, but more specifically white male supremacy. the alt-rigtht movement, for example, feeds on “toxic resentment of women”, and that sexism serves as a wall to attract young men into it. and the women who embrace alt-right and support white supremacists like trump actually welcome their own subordination
that said, many blk male criticisms of black women are also just updated versions of the stereotypes and talking points that white supremacists, who advocate for white male supremacy in particular, have historically used to divide us and subjugate women
so yes blk men too have white supremacy on their side when they spew anti-blk woman rhetoric i.e. blk women are domineering, hyper sexual, irresponsible mothers, etc
even when blk men push perpetuate this narrative that feminism has destroyed the family or has brainwashed women, again these are old talking points of those who want to preserve the social hierarchy where straight white men remain on top.
and just because you don't see me or other feminists take to task the women who spew garbage like all blk men are women beaters doesn't mean it doesn't happen... but yes blk women and blk feminist in particular can we be more vocal to push back against ppl who call themselves feminist but have another agenda besides gender equality
Again, the point that the professor was getting at is that black feminism is a movement and within that movement, and within that movement there is a lot of "truth" being put out there that really is just a demonization of black men borrowing from the tactics used by white supremacists. Can you really say there is some organized movement by and for black men that uses harmful stereotypes to tear down black women in an effort to uplift black men? And if you can point to such a movement, is it anywhere near as popular as black feminism? I don't there is. We're not just talking about the stupid comments from individuals here. We're talking about a massive propaganda movement by one group from within the black community directed towards another group from within the black community.
a few individuals?
we have religious constitutions and hip hop culture, which are mostly dominated by blk men, that advocate for patriarchy and/or encourage misogyny
clowns like tommy sotomayor have a large following and have obtained a platform that can reach millions
lil wayne who talked down on the goals of BLM and talked down on blk women has influence over millions
and you equivalating feminism with white supremacy ...they are not one and the same...feminism is the advocacy of gender equality and women's rights
are there some white supremacists who call themselves feminists, yes, and do some feminist perpetuate anti-blk stereotypes and contribute to racism but they do not have sole ownership over the movement or word
but again yes blk women and blk feminist in particular can we be more vocal to push back against ppl who call themselves feminist but have another agenda besides gender equality
this is good read. if you would care to do so
https://www.salon.com/2017/09/02/memo-to-white-feminists-it-is-our-job-to-dismantle-white-supremacy-now/
ok you named like 3-4 out of millions.
dont chicks be the ones dancing in groups in clubs to lil wayne?
but hes a problem? or only when you not in the mood for dancing?
the problem here is that feminism give women a group and mob mentality to bring down what they think is the real problem.
how many feminists are married? to a black man? whats their stance? is it to empower women or bring black men down? i'd love to be a fly on the wall during taco night to hear the latter conversation.
gender equality and ? aint ? is two different things.
so are white dudes better? how so?
so are these women turning into ? ?
what they really mad at? -
Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »
a few individuals?
we have religious constitutions and hip hop culture, which are mostly dominated by blk men, that advocate for patriarchy and/or encourage misogyny
clowns like tommy sotomayor have a large following and have obtained a platform that can reach millions
lil wayne who talked down on the goals of BLM and talked down on blk women has influence over millions
and you equivalating feminism with white supremacy ...they are not one and the same...feminism is the advocacy of gender equality and women's rights
are there some white supremacists who call themselves feminists, yes, and do some feminist perpetuate anti-blk stereotypes and contribute to racism but they do not have sole ownership over the movement or word
but again yes blk women and blk feminist in particular can we be more vocal to push back against ppl who call themselves feminist but have another agenda besides gender equality
this is good read. if you would care to do so
https://www.salon.com/2017/09/02/memo-to-white-feminists-it-is-our-job-to-dismantle-white-supremacy-now/
You're arguing something different now. Neither the professor no I said anything about there not being in misogyny in the community. But you can't compare rappers talking about ? and hoes in songs to black female intellectuals writing supposed scholarly papers that push white supremacist ideology disguised as women's rights philosophy.
And I did not say that feminism is the same as white supremacy. WTF? That is a gross distortion of the point being made. I said that when accusing black men of certain things, feminists often bolster their false accusations by using white supremacist rhetoric. Unless 100% of feminism revolves around blaming black men for black women's problems (which some believe is true), I'm not really sure how you could come to the conclusion you did.
I'll read that article on the commute home from work. -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »
a few individuals?
we have religious constitutions and hip hop culture, which are mostly dominated by blk men, that advocate for patriarchy and/or encourage misogyny
clowns like tommy sotomayor have a large following and have obtained a platform that can reach millions
lil wayne who talked down on the goals of BLM and talked down on blk women has influence over millions
and you equivalating feminism with white supremacy ...they are not one and the same...feminism is the advocacy of gender equality and women's rights
are there some white supremacists who call themselves feminists, yes, and do some feminist perpetuate anti-blk stereotypes and contribute to racism but they do not have sole ownership over the movement or word
but again yes blk women and blk feminist in particular can we be more vocal to push back against ppl who call themselves feminist but have another agenda besides gender equality
this is good read. if you would care to do so
https://www.salon.com/2017/09/02/memo-to-white-feminists-it-is-our-job-to-dismantle-white-supremacy-now/
You're arguing something different now. Neither the professor no I said anything about there not being in misogyny in the community. But you can't compare rappers talking about ? and hoes in songs to black female intellectuals writing supposed scholarly papers that push white supremacist ideology disguised as women's rights philosophy.
And I did not say that feminism is the same as white supremacy. WTF? That is a gross distortion of the point being made. I said that when accusing black men of certain things, feminists often bolster their false accusations by using white supremacist rhetoric. Unless 100% of feminism revolves around blaming black men for black women's problems (which some believe is true), I'm not really sure how you could come to the conclusion you did.
I'll read that article on the commute home from work.
these rappers and religious institutions are quite influential
and who are all these influential black female intellectuals writing supposed scholarly papers that push white supremacist ideology disguised as women's rights philosophy? lol
that said, how am i arguing something different? lol expound. my initial point and what i continue to argue is that both blk men and blk women have been guilty of perpetuating white supremacists talking points and siding with white supremacist. perpetuating misogyny and patriarchy qualifies because it serves to subjugate and dehumanize blk women and women in general
and no you didn't say that feminism is the same as white supremacy. but you suggested as much when you claim within the movement there is A LOT lot of "truth" being put out there that really is just a demonization of black men
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2stepz_ahead wrote: »Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »
we live in a white male dominated society....
realize most white supremacist groups advocate not just white supremacy, but more specifically white male supremacy. the alt-rigtht movement, for example, feeds on “toxic resentment of women”, and that sexism serves as a wall to attract young men into it. and the women who embrace alt-right and support white supremacists like trump actually welcome their own subordination
that said, many blk male criticisms of black women are also just updated versions of the stereotypes and talking points that white supremacists, who advocate for white male supremacy in particular, have historically used to divide us and subjugate women
so yes blk men too have white supremacy on their side when they spew anti-blk woman rhetoric i.e. blk women are domineering, hyper sexual, irresponsible mothers, etc
even when blk men push perpetuate this narrative that feminism has destroyed the family or has brainwashed women, again these are old talking points of those who want to preserve the social hierarchy where straight white men remain on top.
and just because you don't see me or other feminists take to task the women who spew garbage like all blk men are women beaters doesn't mean it doesn't happen... but yes blk women and blk feminist in particular can we be more vocal to push back against ppl who call themselves feminist but have another agenda besides gender equality
Again, the point that the professor was getting at is that black feminism is a movement and within that movement, and within that movement there is a lot of "truth" being put out there that really is just a demonization of black men borrowing from the tactics used by white supremacists. Can you really say there is some organized movement by and for black men that uses harmful stereotypes to tear down black women in an effort to uplift black men? And if you can point to such a movement, is it anywhere near as popular as black feminism? I don't there is. We're not just talking about the stupid comments from individuals here. We're talking about a massive propaganda movement by one group from within the black community directed towards another group from within the black community.
a few individuals?
we have religious constitutions and hip hop culture, which are mostly dominated by blk men, that advocate for patriarchy and/or encourage misogyny
clowns like tommy sotomayor have a large following and have obtained a platform that can reach millions
lil wayne who talked down on the goals of BLM and talked down on blk women has influence over millions
and you equivalating feminism with white supremacy ...they are not one and the same...feminism is the advocacy of gender equality and women's rights
are there some white supremacists who call themselves feminists, yes, and do some feminist perpetuate anti-blk stereotypes and contribute to racism but they do not have sole ownership over the movement or word
but again yes blk women and blk feminist in particular can we be more vocal to push back against ppl who call themselves feminist but have another agenda besides gender equality
this is good read. if you would care to do so
https://www.salon.com/2017/09/02/memo-to-white-feminists-it-is-our-job-to-dismantle-white-supremacy-now/
ok you named like 3-4 out of millions.
dont chicks be the ones dancing in groups in clubs to lil wayne?
but hes a problem? or only when you not in the mood for dancing?
the problem here is that feminism give women a group and mob mentality to bring down what they think is the real problem.
how many feminists are married? to a black man? whats their stance? is it to empower women or bring black men down? i'd love to be a fly on the wall during taco night to hear the latter conversation.
gender equality and ? aint ? is two different things.
so are white dudes better? how so?
so are these women turning into ? ?
what they really mad at?
a lot of women continue to listen to mainstream hip hop, doesn't make artist like lil wayne or rick ross any less problematic in their views and messaging for blk america as a whole
no white dudes are not better...they are some of the worst offenders
we are frustrated with the sexism and misogyny within our communities, in society in general
why is anyone's sexual preference or marital status relevant? lol -
Shuffington wrote: »2stepz_ahead wrote: »Shuffington wrote: »Ajackson17 wrote: »
The only necessary and correct response to a Black woman’s lamentations is to listen. It is not to dismiss or find offense. It is not to center your own feelings and plight. It is not to rebut, refute, or refuse to accept. It is to hear her, make amends, and help her move through the pain. Whether you agree or not, recognize these concerns or not, experience these same grievances or not, are a woman yourself or not, this is the modus operandi. I have learned from this exchange that Black women are all we got, save a selection of Black men we can depend on as allies. (I’m so thankful my partner is my ally and is not above introspection and criticism; that he recognizes and maximizes his minimal privilege for my benefit and that of other Black women.) But, just like with White people, Black women must wear a guard of protection when encountering Black men until they prove themselves to be a safe place.
Theres a famous quote by Stephen R. Covey
Understanding the nature of a forum is to reply, I think it took like 10 pages( out of those people who engaged) for someone to ask a question or step outside of themselves and be inquisitive.We typically seek first to be understood. Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply. They're either speaking or preparing to speak. They're filtering everything through their own paradigms, reading their autobiography into other people's lives.
I find that the bolded is the best answer for the grievances that are being expressed.
While I was a little perked up by the subject title, I wasn't really offended. As I reflected on my personal interactions with women that I've encountered in my walk of life.... I realize they've all been relatively pleasant no matter how close or far the relationship. I can confidently say that most of the women whom i engaged with/ girlfriends / coworkers (excluding moms because she's a given) had my back, and probably still will have my back.
With the amount of cringe worthy comments in this thread, I think deep down, they're guys in here that feel like "? .. if I don't control these "b*tches," they will destroy me". Like to the point where they take all grievances as personal attacks.... like "some white people" do.
while they're some wild women out their that aint ? , the key to discernment is listening with an intent to understand.
but I get it, engaging discourse with an intent to understand our counterpart is something not everyone is here for.
problem here is each side is blaming the other for not listening and thats how we are here.
but ...there is another problem...
People dont listen to themselves or what they say to another person.
or they choose not to correct themselves when they are wrong with what thy say.
i know i had many fights with women i dated simply over the fact i either had to take on baggage from another ? or live up to the expectation of their ideal ? .
what is a person to do in that situation? cuz they both revolve around you aint ? .
and some people dont like inquisitive people...they think they are up to something or shut down.
then we get into acknowledgement..
how many people appreciate the small things. how many acknowledge the small things? how many people think they shouldnt have to because thats the way it should be?
At the end of the day, we all have our own personal hang-ups.
Theres a time tho, when you have to recognize that some people are just toxic human beings.
When it comes to issues where women do not feel empowered, safe, and or validated, that might be a good time
to listen. My girl talks about how when she's at work, the older black men that she works with talk over her. They assume that she's their daughter or little sister. She can assume a more assertive stance but she will then be classified as the "Mean B*tch". They constantly ask her when is she going to get married. They assume that she should be in a traditional marriage with kids at her age. In subtle ways they insinuate that she's invalid because she hasn't reach the antiquated specific expectations on where they feel, a woman like her should be in her life. Of course women in general make snide comments like this to each other as well, but I think when it comes from a male it can come off as "controlling" and possessive.
It can also be tiresome to constantly ignore comments like those on a weekly basis.
Issues like these have a way of creeping into my life. Clearly, I can't solve them for her, I can only listen and provide the best direction that I think, makes sense for her and her future.
It's a different story when your girl is voicing her particular concerns about dudes at her jobs just then generalizing about alll Black men. A more appropriate comparison would be if she came home and blamed you for it - on some "why Black men always talk over Black women and treat us like how white people treat Black people ?"... I'm sure your reaction would be to do somethinf other than 'just listen'.
Honestly.
I kinda would have to listen, Im not really trying to "win" an argument. Assuming this is a girl I'm heavily into, I would have incredible generosity in the way I interpret her behavior.... Until I feel like her behavior is toxic and not constructive then thats when I leave.
I also feel that the grievances from women become palatable ... When black men don't feel like black women, in general, are here to destroy them. I personally am not the one out here getting ? , sexually assaulted or called a b*tch when I decline your advances; nobody is policing my ? either. Patriarchy has awarded me subtle but slight advantages and I can admit that.
So theres a subset of problems that I don't have to concern myself with as a man, but I, as the closest collaborator within the race to black women am the only one that has the ability to empathetically connect through our shared struggle.
You can vent at me all day... but the line of disrespect is a discretionary line that each person has to draw for themselves.
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Shuffington wrote: »Shuffington wrote: »2stepz_ahead wrote: »Shuffington wrote: »Ajackson17 wrote: »
The only necessary and correct response to a Black woman’s lamentations is to listen. It is not to dismiss or find offense. It is not to center your own feelings and plight. It is not to rebut, refute, or refuse to accept. It is to hear her, make amends, and help her move through the pain. Whether you agree or not, recognize these concerns or not, experience these same grievances or not, are a woman yourself or not, this is the modus operandi. I have learned from this exchange that Black women are all we got, save a selection of Black men we can depend on as allies. (I’m so thankful my partner is my ally and is not above introspection and criticism; that he recognizes and maximizes his minimal privilege for my benefit and that of other Black women.) But, just like with White people, Black women must wear a guard of protection when encountering Black men until they prove themselves to be a safe place.
Theres a famous quote by Stephen R. Covey
Understanding the nature of a forum is to reply, I think it took like 10 pages( out of those people who engaged) for someone to ask a question or step outside of themselves and be inquisitive.We typically seek first to be understood. Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply. They're either speaking or preparing to speak. They're filtering everything through their own paradigms, reading their autobiography into other people's lives.
I find that the bolded is the best answer for the grievances that are being expressed.
While I was a little perked up by the subject title, I wasn't really offended. As I reflected on my personal interactions with women that I've encountered in my walk of life.... I realize they've all been relatively pleasant no matter how close or far the relationship. I can confidently say that most of the women whom i engaged with/ girlfriends / coworkers (excluding moms because she's a given) had my back, and probably still will have my back.
With the amount of cringe worthy comments in this thread, I think deep down, they're guys in here that feel like "? .. if I don't control these "b*tches," they will destroy me". Like to the point where they take all grievances as personal attacks.... like "some white people" do.
while they're some wild women out their that aint ? , the key to discernment is listening with an intent to understand.
but I get it, engaging discourse with an intent to understand our counterpart is something not everyone is here for.
problem here is each side is blaming the other for not listening and thats how we are here.
but ...there is another problem...
People dont listen to themselves or what they say to another person.
or they choose not to correct themselves when they are wrong with what thy say.
i know i had many fights with women i dated simply over the fact i either had to take on baggage from another ? or live up to the expectation of their ideal ? .
what is a person to do in that situation? cuz they both revolve around you aint ? .
and some people dont like inquisitive people...they think they are up to something or shut down.
then we get into acknowledgement..
how many people appreciate the small things. how many acknowledge the small things? how many people think they shouldnt have to because thats the way it should be?
At the end of the day, we all have our own personal hang-ups.
Theres a time tho, when you have to recognize that some people are just toxic human beings.
When it comes to issues where women do not feel empowered, safe, and or validated, that might be a good time
to listen. My girl talks about how when she's at work, the older black men that she works with talk over her. They assume that she's their daughter or little sister. She can assume a more assertive stance but she will then be classified as the "Mean B*tch". They constantly ask her when is she going to get married. They assume that she should be in a traditional marriage with kids at her age. In subtle ways they insinuate that she's invalid because she hasn't reach the antiquated specific expectations on where they feel, a woman like her should be in her life. Of course women in general make snide comments like this to each other as well, but I think when it comes from a male it can come off as "controlling" and possessive.
It can also be tiresome to constantly ignore comments like those on a weekly basis.
Issues like these have a way of creeping into my life. Clearly, I can't solve them for her, I can only listen and provide the best direction that I think, makes sense for her and her future.
It's a different story when your girl is voicing her particular concerns about dudes at her jobs just then generalizing about alll Black men. A more appropriate comparison would be if she came home and blamed you for it - on some "why Black men always talk over Black women and treat us like how white people treat Black people ?"... I'm sure your reaction would be to do somethinf other than 'just listen'.
Honestly.
I kinda would have to listen, Im not really trying to "win" an argument. Assuming this is a girl I'm heavily into, I would have incredible generosity in the way I interpret her behavior.... Until I feel like her behavior is toxic and not constructive then thats when I leave.
I also feel that the grievances from women become palatable ... When black men don't feel like black women, in general, are here to destroy them. I personally am not the one out here getting ? , sexually assaulted or called a b*tch when I decline your advances; nobody is policing my ? either. Patriarchy has awarded me subtle but slight advantages and I can admit that.
So theres a subset of problems that I don't have to concern myself with as a man, but I, as the closest collaborator within the race to black women am the only one that has the ability to empathetically connect through our shared struggle.
You can vent at me all day... but the line of disrespect is a discretionary line that each person has to draw for themselves.
So you'd sit there and listen to your girl bash all Black men, including you, instead of talking about the specific dudes who wronged her ? What's constructive about that ?
That's not toxic ? ? , that's the definition of toxic to let that kind of stereotyping/generalizing go unchecked. -
Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »
these rappers and religious institutions are quite influential
and who are all these influential black female intellectuals writing supposed scholarly papers that push white supremacist ideology disguised as women's rights philosophy? lol
that said, how am i arguing something different? lol expound. my initial point and what i continue to argue is that both blk men and blk women have been guilty of perpetuating white supremacists talking points and siding with white supremacist. perpetuating misogyny and patriarchy qualifies because it serves to subjugate and dehumanize blk women and women in general
and no you didn't say that feminism is the same as white supremacy. but you suggested as much when you claim within the movement there is A LOT lot of "truth" being put out there that really is just a demonization of black men
Rappers are influential, but no one with any sense is looking to rappers for insight on sociological matters. And religious institutions are shifting with the times too. Previously, women couldn't hold any positions of leadership over men in most churches. Nowadays, it's not that uncommon to see women as the heads of churches. Not to mention that almost every church has instituted positions such as deaconesses that allow women to hold positions of authority in the church. Either way neither of those is the same as scholar using bad stats and bad science to try and add legitimacy to sterotypes.
Any feminist that has quoted ? stats or unsubstantiated characterizations of black men to explain some ill in the community. It's not necessarily a paper but check this article.
http://www.blackcommentator.com/46/46_guest_2.html
It's about an interview with bell hooks. She claimed that black males were violent because they were disproportionately sexually abused claiming (with no proof) that sexual abuse is more rampant among black men. Now I've read some from her, and I don't think she's bad at all, but this just goes to show how pervasive making unsubstantiated claims to explain things with black males is in feminism.
The difference between what you and I are saying is that you keep coming up with statements made by random dudes here and there. I'm talking about a movement that is at least partially based on explaining the hardships black women face by shifting blame to black men. As far as I know, no black male scholars do that to black women. There is no black male movement that uses that tactic. Yes, there are men that promote white supremacy, but, as far as I know, there is no organized ideology that black men are pushing that throws black women under the bus using white racist rhetoric.
As for your last statement, if the shoe fits... I'm not saying black feminism is the same thing as white supremacy, but if its a fact that black feminists knowingly use bad data, stereotypes, and other ill logic all to tear black men down, how am I wrong for pointing that out. Do you know how many times I've heard feminists claim that black men are the leading cause of death for black women? That's about as big a lie as is possible, yet it's promoted like it's ? 's truth. -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »
these rappers and religious institutions are quite influential
and who are all these influential black female intellectuals writing supposed scholarly papers that push white supremacist ideology disguised as women's rights philosophy? lol
that said, how am i arguing something different? lol expound. my initial point and what i continue to argue is that both blk men and blk women have been guilty of perpetuating white supremacists talking points and siding with white supremacist. perpetuating misogyny and patriarchy qualifies because it serves to subjugate and dehumanize blk women and women in general
and no you didn't say that feminism is the same as white supremacy. but you suggested as much when you claim within the movement there is A LOT lot of "truth" being put out there that really is just a demonization of black men
Rappers are influential, but no one with any sense is looking to rappers for insight on sociological matters. And religious institutions are shifting with the times too. Previously, women couldn't hold any positions of leadership over men in most churches. Nowadays, it's not that uncommon to see women as the heads of churches. Not to mention that almost every church has instituted positions such as deaconesses that allow women to hold positions of authority in the church. Either way neither of those is the same as scholar using bad stats and bad science to try and add legitimacy to sterotypes.
Any feminist that has quoted ? stats or unsubstantiated characterizations of black men to explain some ill in the community. It's not necessarily a paper but check this article.
http://www.blackcommentator.com/46/46_guest_2.html
It's about an interview with bell hooks. She claimed that black males were violent because they were disproportionately sexually abused claiming (with no proof) that sexual abuse is more rampant among black men. Now I've read some from her, and I don't think she's bad at all, but this just goes to show how pervasive making unsubstantiated claims to explain things with black males is in feminism.
The difference between what you and I are saying is that you keep coming up with statements made by random dudes here and there. I'm talking about a movement that is at least partially based on explaining the hardships black women face by shifting blame to black men. As far as I know, no black male scholars do that to black women. There is no black male movement that uses that tactic. Yes, there are men that promote white supremacy, but, as far as I know, there is no organized ideology that black men are pushing that throws black women under the bus using white racist rhetoric.
As for your last statement, if the shoe fits... I'm not saying black feminism is the same thing as white supremacy, but if its a fact that black feminists knowingly use bad data, stereotypes, and other ill logic all to tear black men down, how am I wrong for pointing that out. Do you know how many times I've heard feminists claim that black men are the leading cause of death for black women? That's about as big a lie as is possible, yet it's promoted like it's ? 's truth.
blk feminism is not inherently anit-blk men
i get where u are coming from though...
i'm not the biggest fan of bell hook's ideas and there are ppl spreading misinformation unchecked. but i think you are overstating their influence and or following
that said, i'm not just coming up with random statements made by ? on the IC. what a lot of men fail to acknowledge, is our society, world by default is anti-woman. and by extension anti-blk woman.
women don't make good leaders. women are devious. women cannot think for themselves. women don't know what is best. women who don't act like "ladies" should expect to be disrespected. feminism is only for white women. blk women are irresponsible mothers. women can't raise men. most blk women are welfare queens, hood rats, birds, etc. rhetoric i hear in barber shops, family gatherings, work,media, music etc from blk men. much of the same rhetoric i hear from white male politicians to justify cuts made to the social safety net only to give the money to a military contractor. rhetoric the alt right uses to recruit. we know who tommy sotomayor and tariq nasheed for a reason. these men have large followings
yes we live in a world that is largely blk ppl, and blk men have had to pay for that with their lives. but blk women shouldn't have to always choose our race over our gender at our own expense
-
Below is a good read
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/a-womans-response-to-straight-black-men-are-the-white_us_59c3cf05e4b0c87def8835c8
A Woman’s Response To ‘Straight Black Men Are The White People Of Black People’
“I was Black. I was female. And I was out – out – by any construct wherever the power lay.” ― Audre Lorde
Two days ago Damon Young from Very Smart Brothas published a piece entitled “Straight Black Men Are the White People of Black People.” As soon as I read the title, my brain was like. “Yes, let’s talk about it.” After reading the piece, I thought Damon did an excellent job tackling a difficult and complicated issue, and I was happy that he used his male privilege to help tell our stories.
Black women have not been allowed to be both Black and female. Historically, we have had to choose our race over our gender, and we have not had the space to express the challenges we face as women. We have not talked about our pain in order to protect our Black men’s dignity. We have not been able to be truly feminist, for fear that it disregards, or contradicts, our shared Blackness. We are so worried about the repercussions of discussing our issues with toxic masculinity that we ignore them. So when I saw this piece, I thought maybe, just maybe, that space was being created for Black women to be both Black and female. But my ? , after reading the comments, I realized how far we still have to go. So, let me try to break some things down. Y’all know I like lists, so here we go:
“Yes, I agree that Black men have privilege but the white analogy is divisive, separatist, and hurtful.”
I disagree, this analogy is perfect. Absolutely perfect. And let’s talk about white privilege for a minute, and I will let you draw your own conclusions. When we try to have conversations around white privilege, a few things happen. First, white people deflect, suggesting that talking about white privilege is separatist because we all have different privileges. Why call out white privilege? All lives matter, right? Second, they discuss struggles they have had as a white person. “I grew up in a single-family home, I am poor, I was bullied as a kid.” Somehow, they believe that experiencing adversity takes away their white privilege. And lastly, they say,
“Yes, I have privilege, but that isn’t my fault. I didn’t choose to be white, why do I have to pay the price? Why do I have to carry the burden of privilege?” Now, go back above and replace “white” with “male.” Privilege is a special advantage available to a group of people. I hear our Black men giving the same excuses as white folks, and that is why this analogy works. We have all gotten these tired responses when discussing white privilege, and it is frustrating. So, do you see how ironic it is when you give us the same excuses? Do you see how you are being the “white people” of Black people? To push it a step further, I have even heard men say, “Yes this is a problem, but this isn’t the way to express it.” What is the right way to express it then? Does this not sound eerily similar to white people’s critique of the way in which people of color protest, appeal, and organize?
“Black men have it bad in this country. Give us a break.”
Yes, you absolutely do. And Damon made that clear in the beginning of the article. He writes that “In America, we are near or at the bottom in every relevant metric determining quality of life. Our arrest and incarceration rates, our likelihood of dying a violent death, our likelihood of graduating high school and attending college, our employment rates, our average net worth, our likelihood of surviving past 70.” We know this, we acknowledge this, and we fight for you. We march for you. We support you. We do not try to argue that this doesn’t exist. However, we will not “give you a break.” You are not absolved of the responsibility of both acknowledging and uplifting your Black women. Black men have a heavy burden to bear, and you have been taught and conditioned that it is somehow acceptable to dump that burden on Black women. Black men have historically only had power over Black women, so you’ve made us suffer to help ease your pain. You have disrespected us, you have degraded us, you have silenced us. Yes, slavery, oppression, colonization, and dehumanization can take its toll on your psychological well-being. We get that you are in pain, we are too, and we want to support you. But being in pain is not an excuse to cause pain; we must stop the cycle of abuse.
“This is propaganda to divide the Black man and woman.”
I am all for calling out propaganda when I see it. But this, beloved, is real. How I wish it was just propaganda. According to a 2017 CDC report, Black women are four times more likely to be murdered than white women. Homicides are the second leading cause of death and over 50 percent of female homicides are committed by intimate partners. In D.C., there has been a string of Black women getting murdered by Black men with no outcry from our Black brothers. But this is just one statistic. Black women are often harassed on the street by Black men who objectify our bodies, and we are taught to be polite and smile to ensure our safety from a young age. We are taught victim blaming, we internalize it, and we try to dress a certain way because only “respectable” women deserve respect. I am sorry, Damon’s piece is not dividing Black men and women; Black men are dividing us with their own actions, of their own accord. They are doing that when they refuse to date Black women. They are doing it when they call us aggressive, argumentative, or a feminist (which is apparently a bad word) for talking about these issues. And they are doing it when they refuse to acknowledge the role they have played in creating a system that disregards Black women.
“Not all Black men are like this.”
You are right, not all Black men are misogynists. Just like not all white people are racists. But despite this, we still exist in a system that is built on patriarchy, misogyny, and toxic masculinity. And you benefit from this system. So even if you are not engaging in harmful behaviors, if you are not calling them out, you are implicitly guilty. If this is hard for you to understand, think about how you explain a white ally’s role in racism. You explain that they benefit from our racially unjust system, and simply not being overtly racist isn’t enough. If they accept the benefits of the unjust system and do not try to dismantle it, then they are in turn part of the problem. Again, that is why this white analogy is so perfect.
“How does this actually drive change? There were no solutions in the piece.”
I would agree with this critique. He did not provide any solutions because it is complicated as hell. Black men were raised and benefit from a patriarchal structure. Dismantling this is going to be hard. But here are some things you can do. Listen to Black women and don’t call us aggressive or combative when we tell you about our experiences. Acknowledge our pain, and use your privilege to help us dismantle it. Don’t allow people to talk derogatorily about women in your presence. Treat people you date with dignity and respect. This means do not cheat, lie, or steal. Be honest and impeccable with your word. And check your friends when you see them slipping. Make sure you get consent before (and while) engaging in sex. When you see a Black woman being disrespected, defend her. When you hear a story of a Black man beating, cheating, or ? a Black woman, denounce him and his actions clearly. Show us that you support us. Be honest and not defensive. Do some self-evaluation and see how you may be playing out toxic masculinity, and stop. If every Black man made these commitments, we could collectively change this narrative. -
Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »
blk feminism is not inherently anit-blk men
i get where u are coming from though...
i'm not the biggest fan of bell hook's ideas and there are ppl spreading misinformation unchecked. but i think you are overstating their influence and or following
that said, i'm not just coming up with random statements made by ? on the IC. what a lot of men fail to acknowledge, is our society, world by default is anti-woman. and by extension anti-blk woman.
women don't make good leaders. women are devious. women cannot think for themselves. women don't know what is best. women who don't act like "ladies" should expect to be disrespected. feminism is only for white women. blk women are irresponsible mothers. women can't raise men. most blk women are welfare queens, hood rats, birds, etc. rhetoric i hear in barber shops, family gatherings, work,media, music etc from blk men. much of the same rhetoric i hear from white male politicians to justify cuts made to the social safety net only to give the money to a military contractor. rhetoric the alt right uses to recruit. we know who tommy sotomayor and tariq nasheed for a reason. these men have large followings
yes we live in a world that is largely blk ppl, and blk men have had to pay for that with their lives. but blk women shouldn't have to always choose our race over our gender at our own expense
I'm asking a serious question not a loaded one because I honestly don't know. How often do you hear stuff like the bold said seriously by a person of some influence? I'm not talking about Tommy Sotomayor or Tariq Nasheed or any other internet fool. It's probably fair to say they had some influence, but let's be real, neither of those dudes are affecting the lives of women out there. I'm asking like from a real day to day standpoint. I don't know where you work, but when you go to work, are your coworkers saying things like that to you and acting on those beliefs? Are the men in your family saying things like that to you and acting on those beliefs? I only ask because I never see it, but I'm not a woman, so I probably wouldn't see it.
Keeping it 100, I've said stuff like women can't think for themselves or tend to be illogical. I wasn't saying that ? because I'm anti-woman. I said it because it's been my experience with women. Now when women come along that buck those beliefs, I acknowledge it. And even if a woman falls into one of those categories, I don't try to tear her down because of it because we all have faults. I think most dudes are like that. Yeah, we have hangups about women and we generalize, but to say we are anti-woman because of that is a stretch. The same goes for women. I'm pretty sure every woman out there buys into at least one stereotype about men. That doesn't mean every woman is anti-man. I understand you're talking about society as a whole and not each individual, but isn't it possible that the bulk of individual men out there think and behave more like I'm saying than the "Women ain't ? , so we have to keep them down (paraphrasing of course)" way that you and other feminists seem to believe society pushes. -
Shuffington wrote: »Shuffington wrote: »2stepz_ahead wrote: »Shuffington wrote: »Ajackson17 wrote: »
The only necessary and correct response to a Black woman’s lamentations is to listen. It is not to dismiss or find offense. It is not to center your own feelings and plight. It is not to rebut, refute, or refuse to accept. It is to hear her, make amends, and help her move through the pain. Whether you agree or not, recognize these concerns or not, experience these same grievances or not, are a woman yourself or not, this is the modus operandi. I have learned from this exchange that Black women are all we got, save a selection of Black men we can depend on as allies. (I’m so thankful my partner is my ally and is not above introspection and criticism; that he recognizes and maximizes his minimal privilege for my benefit and that of other Black women.) But, just like with White people, Black women must wear a guard of protection when encountering Black men until they prove themselves to be a safe place.
Theres a famous quote by Stephen R. Covey
Understanding the nature of a forum is to reply, I think it took like 10 pages( out of those people who engaged) for someone to ask a question or step outside of themselves and be inquisitive.We typically seek first to be understood. Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply. They're either speaking or preparing to speak. They're filtering everything through their own paradigms, reading their autobiography into other people's lives.
I find that the bolded is the best answer for the grievances that are being expressed.
While I was a little perked up by the subject title, I wasn't really offended. As I reflected on my personal interactions with women that I've encountered in my walk of life.... I realize they've all been relatively pleasant no matter how close or far the relationship. I can confidently say that most of the women whom i engaged with/ girlfriends / coworkers (excluding moms because she's a given) had my back, and probably still will have my back.
With the amount of cringe worthy comments in this thread, I think deep down, they're guys in here that feel like "? .. if I don't control these "b*tches," they will destroy me". Like to the point where they take all grievances as personal attacks.... like "some white people" do.
while they're some wild women out their that aint ? , the key to discernment is listening with an intent to understand.
but I get it, engaging discourse with an intent to understand our counterpart is something not everyone is here for.
problem here is each side is blaming the other for not listening and thats how we are here.
but ...there is another problem...
People dont listen to themselves or what they say to another person.
or they choose not to correct themselves when they are wrong with what thy say.
i know i had many fights with women i dated simply over the fact i either had to take on baggage from another ? or live up to the expectation of their ideal ? .
what is a person to do in that situation? cuz they both revolve around you aint ? .
and some people dont like inquisitive people...they think they are up to something or shut down.
then we get into acknowledgement..
how many people appreciate the small things. how many acknowledge the small things? how many people think they shouldnt have to because thats the way it should be?
At the end of the day, we all have our own personal hang-ups.
Theres a time tho, when you have to recognize that some people are just toxic human beings.
When it comes to issues where women do not feel empowered, safe, and or validated, that might be a good time
to listen. My girl talks about how when she's at work, the older black men that she works with talk over her. They assume that she's their daughter or little sister. She can assume a more assertive stance but she will then be classified as the "Mean B*tch". They constantly ask her when is she going to get married. They assume that she should be in a traditional marriage with kids at her age. In subtle ways they insinuate that she's invalid because she hasn't reach the antiquated specific expectations on where they feel, a woman like her should be in her life. Of course women in general make snide comments like this to each other as well, but I think when it comes from a male it can come off as "controlling" and possessive.
It can also be tiresome to constantly ignore comments like those on a weekly basis.
Issues like these have a way of creeping into my life. Clearly, I can't solve them for her, I can only listen and provide the best direction that I think, makes sense for her and her future.
It's a different story when your girl is voicing her particular concerns about dudes at her jobs just then generalizing about alll Black men. A more appropriate comparison would be if she came home and blamed you for it - on some "why Black men always talk over Black women and treat us like how white people treat Black people ?"... I'm sure your reaction would be to do somethinf other than 'just listen'.
Honestly.
I kinda would have to listen, Im not really trying to "win" an argument. Assuming this is a girl I'm heavily into, I would have incredible generosity in the way I interpret her behavior.... Until I feel like her behavior is toxic and not constructive then thats when I leave.
I also feel that the grievances from women become palatable ... When black men don't feel like black women, in general, are here to destroy them. I personally am not the one out here getting ? , sexually assaulted or called a b*tch when I decline your advances; nobody is policing my ? either. Patriarchy has awarded me subtle but slight advantages and I can admit that.
So theres a subset of problems that I don't have to concern myself with as a man, but I, as the closest collaborator within the race to black women am the only one that has the ability to empathetically connect through our shared struggle.
You can vent at me all day... but the line of disrespect is a discretionary line that each person has to draw for themselves.
So you'd sit there and listen to your girl bash all Black men, including you, instead of talking about the specific dudes who wronged her ? What's constructive about that ?
That's not toxic ? ? , that's the definition of toxic to let that kind of stereotyping/generalizing go unchecked.
When you talk about women do you just say women or do you start naming every specific woman who may fit that specific point? It doesn't take much to know that the "some" is implied or to simply know if you ain't doing none of the ? being talked about then it dont apply to you. -
20 pages for this dumb ? ? Lol
-
Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »Below is a good read
I'll just address some of what she's saying, since she basically shows that ya'll aren't really even understanding the problem we have with the article.“Yes, I agree that Black men have privilege but the white analogy is divisive, separatist, and hurtful.”
I disagree, this analogy is perfect...
I do agree that there are some similarities in some of the responses black men give when being faced with some of black women's issues as white people give when being faced with the issues of blacks. That's really a superficial similarity, and doesn't really even address why black men find the topic so absurd. The whole concept of white privilege comes from power. White people have an intrinsic power that blacks don't. When you make the comparison that the article made you imply that black men have an intrinsic power that black women don't. And that's just false. There may have been a time when it was true, but it's not anymore. The writer of the article himself admitted that black men are basically at the bottom of every category when it comes to measuring worth in this country. How can you possibly believe that we have more power or influence when everyone including black women are above us? If you believe that, the you have to believe that black men are the stupidest people on the planet.“Black men have it bad in this country. Give us a break.”
Yes, you absolutely do...
This is kind of a strawman. She seems to be make the claim that black men are saying "Since we've had it bad, you should just let us slide on all the bad things that we've done to you or for not standing up for you." As far as I know, nobody is making that point. The closest point that I know is that many of us believe that we can't stand up for you in the way you want us to because we're not in position to do so. How can we stop the cops from killing ~30 of you every year when we can't stop them from killing ~300 of us?
Then she goes on to say stuff like "You've only had power over us and you've used that power to make us suffer." How? Generalizations like that are what ? dudes off. The average dude is not out there beating or grossly disrespecting women. That's just a flat out lie. It's pretty much the same as white people acting like the average black man in this country is a drug dealer or a gang banger. We can have a discussion about misogyny and how many black men buy into it, but statements like she's making are too general and are themselves disrespectful.“This is propaganda to divide the Black man and woman.”
I am all for calling out propaganda when I see it...
I haven't seen the 2017 and when I look at the CDC site, I only see stats for 2014. It's true that some age groups have the second leading cause of death being homicide. It may also be true that half of those homicides are domestic in nature. However, this was addressed by the professor in the other post. He pointed out that black feminists like to paint that discrepancy between white female deaths and black female deaths as being due to black men being more violent against his women. However, he pointed out that when people factored in socio-economic standing, you found that that gap disappeared. In other words, it's not that black men are just hateful towards their women in a way that white men aren't. The issue is that those kinds of problems are more prevalent in poor households, and blacks are disproportionately poor. He also pointed out that the same trend was true for black woman on black men violence. So the question is why do feminists want to address these issues as gender issues instead of socio-economic issues?“Not all Black men are like this.”
You are right, not all Black men are misogynists...
Again, black men are at the bottom in nearly every category. You can't keep telling us that we benefit from this system if we've been beaten down by this system more than anyone. That makes no sense -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »
blk feminism is not inherently anit-blk men
i get where u are coming from though...
i'm not the biggest fan of bell hook's ideas and there are ppl spreading misinformation unchecked. but i think you are overstating their influence and or following
that said, i'm not just coming up with random statements made by ? on the IC. what a lot of men fail to acknowledge, is our society, world by default is anti-woman. and by extension anti-blk woman.
women don't make good leaders. women are devious. women cannot think for themselves. women don't know what is best. women who don't act like "ladies" should expect to be disrespected. feminism is only for white women. blk women are irresponsible mothers. women can't raise men. most blk women are welfare queens, hood rats, birds, etc. rhetoric i hear in barber shops, family gatherings, work,media, music etc from blk men. much of the same rhetoric i hear from white male politicians to justify cuts made to the social safety net only to give the money to a military contractor. rhetoric the alt right uses to recruit. we know who tommy sotomayor and tariq nasheed for a reason. these men have large followings
yes we live in a world that is largely blk ppl, and blk men have had to pay for that with their lives. but blk women shouldn't have to always choose our race over our gender at our own expense
I'm asking a serious question not a loaded one because I honestly don't know. How often do you hear stuff like the bold said seriously by a person of some influence? I'm not talking about Tommy Sotomayor or Tariq Nasheed or any other internet fool. It's probably fair to say they had some influence, but let's be real, neither of those dudes are affecting the lives of women out there. I'm asking like from a real day to day standpoint. I don't know where you work, but when you go to work, are your coworkers saying things like that to you and acting on those beliefs? Are the men in your family saying things like that to you and acting on those beliefs? I only ask because I never see it, but I'm not a woman, so I probably wouldn't see it.
a lot... seriously
and yes it impacts the daily lives of women everywhere because we have to interact with these ppl at work, school, out in public, etc
one my college professors, an older blk man, who taught african american history wasn't shy about his disdain for feminism and was quick to say "it was for white women"
i've heard everyone from lawyers to barbers to police officers parrot this rhetoric
i know plenty of women can concur. so how many women will have to come forward with similar testimonies before you all can admit it is a big problem
that said, what blk woman of power and or great influence is out here squawking all ? at ?
bell hooks, has some influence, but women like her exist on the fringes and are thought of as being radical -
Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »
blk feminism is not inherently anit-blk men
i get where u are coming from though...
i'm not the biggest fan of bell hook's ideas and there are ppl spreading misinformation unchecked. but i think you are overstating their influence and or following
that said, i'm not just coming up with random statements made by ? on the IC. what a lot of men fail to acknowledge, is our society, world by default is anti-woman. and by extension anti-blk woman.
women don't make good leaders. women are devious. women cannot think for themselves. women don't know what is best. women who don't act like "ladies" should expect to be disrespected. feminism is only for white women. blk women are irresponsible mothers. women can't raise men. most blk women are welfare queens, hood rats, birds, etc. rhetoric i hear in barber shops, family gatherings, work,media, music etc from blk men. much of the same rhetoric i hear from white male politicians to justify cuts made to the social safety net only to give the money to a military contractor. rhetoric the alt right uses to recruit. we know who tommy sotomayor and tariq nasheed for a reason. these men have large followings
yes we live in a world that is largely blk ppl, and blk men have had to pay for that with their lives. but blk women shouldn't have to always choose our race over our gender at our own expense
I'm asking a serious question not a loaded one because I honestly don't know. How often do you hear stuff like the bold said seriously by a person of some influence? I'm not talking about Tommy Sotomayor or Tariq Nasheed or any other internet fool. It's probably fair to say they had some influence, but let's be real, neither of those dudes are affecting the lives of women out there. I'm asking like from a real day to day standpoint. I don't know where you work, but when you go to work, are your coworkers saying things like that to you and acting on those beliefs? Are the men in your family saying things like that to you and acting on those beliefs? I only ask because I never see it, but I'm not a woman, so I probably wouldn't see it.
a lot... seriously
and yes it impacts the daily lives of women everywhere because we have to interact with these ppl at work, school, out in public, etc
one my college professors, an older blk man, who taught african american history wasn't shy about his disdain for feminism and was quick to say "it was for white women"
i've heard everyone from lawyers to barbers to police officers parrot this rhetoric
i know plenty of women can concur. so how many women will have to come forward with similar testimonies before you all can admit it is a big problem
that said, what blk woman of power and or great influence is out here squawking all ? at ?
bell hooks, has some influence, but women like her exist on the fringes and are thought of as being radical
No, I mean how often do you suffer from the negative stereotypes about women. I fully believe you catch hell for being a feminist.
And the male bashing is a general thing. Remember that discussion we had about the Breakfast Club interview with the feminists and how they lied and said that black males were the leading cause of death for black women. They had CtG believing that. How many in the audience believed it? It's not just a couple. Y'all can get real reckless with the ? you say. The article you just posted had statements that were way too general. -
Makes no sense to say black men are the white people of the black race. First of all only weirdo black men and women from the suburbs believe this ? . Seriously how are black men are oppressing black women in a collective level the same way whites have done to us? Black men ? each other at high levels but you never see us say we are oppressing each other cuz it sounds dumb as ? . Its funny black people are the only race who are focused in these ? gender wars. You know why? To avoid action. Once you establish its time for drastic action there is no time for talking. You got to involve yourself and involve your skill and interact with other people who are on the same page.
As a people we love to talk about liberation and ending white supremacy but all we do is either talk or get distracted. We know America is a racist country and that it will never change. We have a white supremacist in office and the rise of the alt right and here we are reading articles by ? who grew up in the suburbs and never interacted with black people. We are last in every department with other races we are competing with economically,financially,politically and we get into mindless gender wars. As other races pass us by we write dumb-ass articles about "Black men are the white people of the black race." -
Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »Madame_CJSkywalker wrote: »
these rappers and religious institutions are quite influential
and who are all these influential black female intellectuals writing supposed scholarly papers that push white supremacist ideology disguised as women's rights philosophy? lol
that said, how am i arguing something different? lol expound. my initial point and what i continue to argue is that both blk men and blk women have been guilty of perpetuating white supremacists talking points and siding with white supremacist. perpetuating misogyny and patriarchy qualifies because it serves to subjugate and dehumanize blk women and women in general
and no you didn't say that feminism is the same as white supremacy. but you suggested as much when you claim within the movement there is A LOT lot of "truth" being put out there that really is just a demonization of black men
Rappers are influential, but no one with any sense is looking to rappers for insight on sociological matters. And religious institutions are shifting with the times too. Previously, women couldn't hold any positions of leadership over men in most churches. Nowadays, it's not that uncommon to see women as the heads of churches. Not to mention that almost every church has instituted positions such as deaconesses that allow women to hold positions of authority in the church. Either way neither of those is the same as scholar using bad stats and bad science to try and add legitimacy to sterotypes.
Any feminist that has quoted ? stats or unsubstantiated characterizations of black men to explain some ill in the community. It's not necessarily a paper but check this article.
http://www.blackcommentator.com/46/46_guest_2.html
It's about an interview with bell hooks. She claimed that black males were violent because they were disproportionately sexually abused claiming (with no proof) that sexual abuse is more rampant among black men. Now I've read some from her, and I don't think she's bad at all, but this just goes to show how pervasive making unsubstantiated claims to explain things with black males is in feminism.
The difference between what you and I are saying is that you keep coming up with statements made by random dudes here and there. I'm talking about a movement that is at least partially based on explaining the hardships black women face by shifting blame to black men. As far as I know, no black male scholars do that to black women. There is no black male movement that uses that tactic. Yes, there are men that promote white supremacy, but, as far as I know, there is no organized ideology that black men are pushing that throws black women under the bus using white racist rhetoric.
As for your last statement, if the shoe fits... I'm not saying black feminism is the same thing as white supremacy, but if its a fact that black feminists knowingly use bad data, stereotypes, and other ill logic all to tear black men down, how am I wrong for pointing that out. Do you know how many times I've heard feminists claim that black men are the leading cause of death for black women? That's about as big a lie as is possible, yet it's promoted like it's ? 's truth.
blk feminism is not inherently anit-blk men
i get where u are coming from though...
i'm not the biggest fan of bell hook's ideas and there are ppl spreading misinformation unchecked. but i think you are overstating their influence and or following
that said, i'm not just coming up with random statements made by ? on the IC. what a lot of men fail to acknowledge, is our society, world by default is anti-woman. and by extension anti-blk woman.
women don't make good leaders. women are devious. women cannot think for themselves. women don't know what is best. women who don't act like "ladies" should expect to be disrespected. feminism is only for white women. blk women are irresponsible mothers. women can't raise men. most blk women are welfare queens, hood rats, birds, etc. rhetoric i hear in barber shops, family gatherings, work,media, music etc from blk men. much of the same rhetoric i hear from white male politicians to justify cuts made to the social safety net only to give the money to a military contractor. rhetoric the alt right uses to recruit. we know who tommy sotomayor and tariq nasheed for a reason. these men have large followings
yes we live in a world that is largely blk ppl, and blk men have had to pay for that with their lives. but blk women shouldn't have to always choose our race over our gender at our own expense
This idea only works in a world where racism doesn't exist. What some sistas don't understand is that by and large other race women only ? with yall when it benefits them. This has been historically proven time and time again. Yall are used by other women to get their numbers up but they are not so fast to come to your aide. What did your so called sisters in feminism do with #blackgirlsrock? I remember how all the other races of women called my sistas fat and big lipped. Brothas stood up and said ? them we love our volumptious women. Then guess what happened? Butt injections, lip injections etc. Now those women are buying the black womans natural beauty after she has been torn down by them so much that she rejects it herself.
And here's another thing that may be hard to believe; other race men dont ? with us like that either. This is what we keep trying to get through to yall. We have no choice at the moment but to be race focused so that we can succeed together. Aint nobody really trying to fight our fight. ? mostly be about fb likes and retweets. Again to their vain benefit. You may think other races are gender focused but ? with their women and children and see what happens. We the only group doing this ? .
Yall keep trying to seperate yourselves from us and honestly the ? hurts our community in the end. We get ? on by everybody including our own women. Yeah there are black men out there on the same ? but they are the minority and get checked. You see tommy got his ass socked for that. I see the female versions of him go untouched and hell often supported by our women. We in this together yet we choose to keep moving away from each other.
Smh, everytime I try to leave this thread keep calling me back.
-
Damn this ? been goin'.
Is it worth a read? -
CeLLaR-DooR wrote: »Damn this ? been goin'.
Is it worth a read?
Meh. I thought dude's ? was a little tight on this, but the thread isn't gonna stop when it becomes black man vs. black woman. You should know that by now. -
It's true tho.
Fight me.
Ehh this is a hard issue to split into black and white terms like this. Straight black men, depending on how you define straight tbf, are at higher risk for some things like incarceration and the correlating problems that arise from this inequitable policing -
if a black man cant find a job even with a degree....will the black woman take care of him once she starts caking?
if a black man loses his job and must depend on his woman...will she stand by him thru it all AND build him up?
over the years i have heard so many stories of how sisters ? on black men who stood with them, paid for their education, supported them, nurtured them only for it to not matter once SHE starts making money. and then blame it on the man for not looking hard enough. but when the shoes on the other foot...let a man say that...
i mean i can go some many places in this convo.
https://youtu.be/8xc4K5UDDZs
