Hillary just MOLLYWOPPED Sanders with black voters lol damn
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The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »Spoiler Alert: Laissez Faire capitalism doesn't exist: it never has and never will. The invisible hand of the free market and the free market in and of itself is idealist nonsense.
Crony capitalism is a direct result of laissez faire capitalism; E.g., deregulation and globalization. Crony capitalism is an inevitable outcome when capitalism is left unfettered. Everything is for sale (including politicians) because "things will take their course."
But they wont take their course.
We are not on an even playing field as evidenced by our current state of being, and profits are not an effective measure of social well being when they are obtained by creating unemployment and declining living standards in one's home country (as well as the countries they exploit). But, you know things will just take their course. They will trickle down right?
They haven't and they wont!
Adhering to the idea that a pure and unhindered form of capitalism or socialism is best - is stupid. It's 2016, how about some eclecticism?
The government is a tool we can use to reign in all that ? if we can muster the ? to start holding those who are culpable - responsible. But people are too complacent or too scared to lose their place at the kids table to do ? . Which is why there is so much opposition to democratic socialism.
Contradiction much. But laissez faire was prominent in the industrial age until FDE took a stand against Monopolies. I agree with your point though a pure capitalism or socialism/communism system is horrible in itself.
Thought the ideas of Democratic socialism that capitalism is overall incapable of valuing freedom is foolish.
Laissez faire is an idea man. When policies are derivative of laissez faire we see what happens.
I worked absurd hours yesterday, so I'll expound later.
Laissez faire literally letting things take there own course without government interference. That was literally happening in the USA until FDE was elected. Business was completly unregulated.
Bruh, I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm aware of the history, the etymology, and definition of laissez faire. If you'd like to point to my "contradictions" we can discuss those as well as contextual clues, but I don't like playing semantics. We're both too bright for that ? .
Saying that it doesn't exist but that crony capitalism is a derivative of it. I agree as of know it doesn't exist and that such a system would be utterly ? but there was a time when it was practice in American and it led to widespread abuse of individuals by companies and corporations.
What I mean to say is that it's derivative of those ideas. Pardon if that was unclear.
It doesn't exist because it cant. If their was always a fair exchange of goods and services history wouldn't be rife with such inequity. Anyhow, I understand you.
We need the free market to check socialism. We need the government to check capitalism. Otherwise we end up with something untenable.
The end product of both seems to be the same, gross inequality. You can look to Russia on one end and America on the other as they have comparable inequity.
I agree with that but at the same time am weary of that line of thinking. No economic system can truly create a completely equal society. Not saying you are suggesting that just that overall alot of other people tend to think pure capitalism or communism/socialism will solve every problem and it just won't
I think that depends on the country's size. In America you're probably right, but in a country of >10 million socialism tends to produce much better results
I'm highly sceptical of that but do you have any particular country in mind to back up that claim?
Denmark?
No. Denmark prime minister even spoke out about it because of Bernie. It's a market economy
i got fam in Denmark, its very much a welfare state
That doesn't make it a socialist nation, nor does that make it better then capitalism. A market economy cannot be socialist. It has aspects of socialism as most capitalist country's do but it is not a socialist state -
Shizlansky wrote: »Shizlansky wrote: »Shizlansky wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »
Do Ceo's really deserve to make uncountable millions or billions?
The two are relative.
Yes. because without them the business would fail long term. The general is worth more than the foot soilder
Not in America.
Yes in america. The CEO especially when the CEO is the founder cannot just be replaced it takes years of training and education to be a top CEO but you can learn to flip burgers in a weekend.
You giving them to much props. Do your homework.
They fatten their pockets while paying less and less to the ppl that work for them.
You sound like a slave owner. Ppl should just be happy to get something, bits, crumbs.
Big Businesses is hurting the fabric of America. They are not evolving with the cost of living like they use too.
Instead they hold the working class back. Even though the working class is where the heart and power of America lies.
And when the working class finally turns their back on them for not doing the right thing America will crumble.
It is not the responsibility of business big or small to do anything more than enrich themselves i don't own pieces in businesses because i care about the fabric of america. The businesses that i invest in are owned by me and my partners and how we conduct business, how we decided how much to pay people is our affair and should be no concern of the government. If i am paying you 7 $ and you don't like it then you are free to seek a job elsewhere if no one will work for me for 7$ than i will have to increase the pay but government has no right to tell me i have to pay at a certain level when i cannot or simply don't want to do so.
government is not going to save my ass if my business starts to sink yet they want to dictate to me how much i have to pay my employees.
What kind of Christian are you?
Jesus is not proud.
JESUS WOULD WANT me to give to the poor freely OF MY OWN HEART not be forced to by the government. In addition there is no rule in the bible saying that i have to pay anyone 15$ an hour -
Lol @ 15/hr being asinine
I don't know where you live but that's barely surviving on this side
So if it is more expensive in that locale, compensation across the board should reflect that.
Minimum wage is for the MINIMUM. - not the higher end of the spectrum.
For the record, 15/Hr can go a lot further than most realize.
We have to more clearly define what you mean by "surviving"... If a person wants a better life, they should get a better job. -
Shizlansky wrote: »The average pay should be around the cost of living.
AVERAGE... Not MINIMUM -
Also that CEO analogy is wrong on so many levels. lol @ the notion that CEOs should earn that much because the business would fail without them. Word to Enron
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CashmoneyDux wrote: »Also that CEO analogy is wrong on so many levels. lol @ the notion that CEOs should earn that much because the business would fail without them. Word to Enron
Enron was an exception. Do you really think all these complex and large organization got that way without proper leadership and strategic planning??? -
Bernie sanders wants 12 weeks of paid vacation the norm horrible idea i am not paying anyone to doing nothing for 12 weeks and then when that person comes back risk them being out of the loop and incapable of doing there job for at lest another week.
Bernie sanders wants to raise the minimum wage to 15 and hour horrible idea because there will be many small businesses that simply cannot afford to pay there people 15$ and even more that will hire less people because of it FOR most industries there should be no minimum wage period.
Bernies sanders wants to make university free while that may sound nice in reality it could make having certain degree levels worthless.
just 3 of the horrible ideas Bernie sanders promotes.
2 out of 3...
The first two ideas are ? asinine. 3 mos standard time off is exorbitant; as is $15 minimum wage.
Id like to see links to these proposed plans
I do, however, think the cost of college can and should be drastically lowered. High school is woefully insufficient to furnish individuals with the basic skills to be successful in life.... And college is either an Impossibility or a tremendously expensive proposition for a vast number of Americans.
I will never understand the argument that highly valued skills that are in demand will suddenly become "obsolete" simply because they cost less to obtain.
If everyone has a high school diploma then having on is worthless you are going to need more the value is lowered because everyone has the same thing. What these people should be doing is focusing on is helping people increase skills not sending people to universities that will teach them useless ? .
AND I NEVER SAID HIGHLY valued skills will become obsolete once again people are inferring things illogically
So Universities do not provide their consumers with useful or highly valued skills? ...
Instead they only teach their students "useless ? "?
Interesting ... American history disagrees with you. Should college be abolished altogether? -
CashmoneyDux wrote: »Also that CEO analogy is wrong on so many levels. lol @ the notion that CEOs should earn that much because the business would fail without them. Word to Enron
Enron was an exception. Do you really think all these complex and large organization got that way without proper leadership and strategic planning???
Thats not what im saying lol. Coercion by industries has been a huge thing in the United States. dont play dumb you know this. -
CashmoneyDux wrote: »@CashmoneyDux your turn, I'm not from around here and I was so easily able to find that information and objectively dissect each. Your turn to better educate us on Sanders' policies in depth and tell us why he's better. Since it was you who posed the question.
Shoot.
1)The American public is misinformed. Clearly, if trump is winning by a landslide. But like you said, you aren't from here so you wouldn't know.
2) my argument is not that Bernie is the great White Hope as you all are trying to make me sound, but he is the better option than Hillary.
3) Everyone knows raising the minimum wage is terrible in the long run, so im not even going to touch that subject. You realize that the reason we are in the mess today is because of big business? The reason the banked failed in 2008 is because credit regulation was poor. Why was credit regulation poor? because of GREED. What loopholes is she going to close? The point im making is that Hillary would work with big business, and Bernie wouldn't budge/be swayed by lobbyists and donations. And the free college thing confuses me because we taxpayer money going to exorbitant military programs and NFL stadiums, but free college is absurd?
4) I saw nothing on that infographic about foreign policy, which is one of the primary jobs of the President, and we all know Hillary's track record with that( see Benghazi)
If I hadn't made it clear to everyone, imma make it clear it again
Hillary has shown her true colors when it comes to big business and social policies. shes the opposite side of the GOP coin. Whereas Bernie has been very concrete in his views and actually isn't transparent. Why are we giving these businesses 3rd and 4th chances with our economy?
@zzombie I actually understand what you are saying about your qualms with Bernie and the political system as a whole and you made great points. I just think that a radical change in the way our government is better than more of the same because the same hasn't been working. And again, I am not advocating for pure socialism because that wouldn't work.
How has it not been working??? there are less poor people now that there were 100 years ago more people live better quality lives than ever before in human history. some American citizens have access to free food, free housing free education up to grade 12. what do you realistically expect??? -
Bernie sanders wants 12 weeks of paid vacation the norm horrible idea i am not paying anyone to doing nothing for 12 weeks and then when that person comes back risk them being out of the loop and incapable of doing there job for at lest another week.
Bernie sanders wants to raise the minimum wage to 15 and hour horrible idea because there will be many small businesses that simply cannot afford to pay there people 15$ and even more that will hire less people because of it FOR most industries there should be no minimum wage period.
Bernies sanders wants to make university free while that may sound nice in reality it could make having certain degree levels worthless.
just 3 of the horrible ideas Bernie sanders promotes.
2 out of 3...
The first two ideas are ? asinine. 3 mos standard time off is exorbitant; as is $15 minimum wage.
Id like to see links to these proposed plans
I do, however, think the cost of college can and should be drastically lowered. High school is woefully insufficient to furnish individuals with the basic skills to be successful in life.... And college is either an Impossibility or a tremendously expensive proposition for a vast number of Americans.
I will never understand the argument that highly valued skills that are in demand will suddenly become "obsolete" simply because they cost less to obtain.
If everyone has a high school diploma then having on is worthless you are going to need more the value is lowered because everyone has the same thing. What these people should be doing is focusing on is helping people increase skills not sending people to universities that will teach them useless ? .
AND I NEVER SAID HIGHLY valued skills will become obsolete once again people are inferring things illogically
So Universities do not provide their consumers with useful or highly valued skills? ...
Instead they only teach their students "useless ? "?
Interesting ... American history disagrees with you. Should college be abolished altogether?
Too much time is spent in the american university system teaching useless nonsense the benefit is not heavier than the cost. what makes a skill valuable is the demand for it and nothing else . government has to spur businesses into creating the demand but you cannot do that with burdensome taxes and increasing the supply of people with degrees. I rather hire someone with experience and no degree the whole point i was trying to make was that we should be looking into alternatives to university because they are time wasteful and expensive -
CashmoneyDux wrote: »The majority of voters were uninformed thats the sad truth. and the funny thing to me is, all the Bernie haters on here have never given a reason as to why Hilary is the better candidate.
Strange.
Hilary is a better choice primarily because she would be stable she won't try to turn the whole system on it's head Bernie sanders wants to inject ideas and policies into the american system that are European and not American.
ideologically Bernie sanders is more of a western European politician in Europe there is a greater focus on equality in america there has been a greater focus on liberty. If you study the history of america vs europe the difference between why these difference will become very apparent to you.
Over in Europe there has historically been a greater sense of class consciousness, because of the monarchies there has always been stronger serious cultural differences between rich and poor.
Traditionally america has always been about ever increasing levels of liberty and freedom
Terrible
Lmaoo not one endorsement of Hillary or her policies in this post
Willing to put someone who has no business leading anybody in the seat because she won't shake ? up too much
Seriously, are you even a citizen ? ? Ain't you from Haiti
Lol
In regards to domestic policy, you'd be splitting hairs to differentiate Bernie and Clinton at this point imho
Not likely a republican congress is going to pass either of their proposals anyways, without major concessions
However Hilarys foreign policy blunders, e.g. her role in pushing for the bombing of Libya, and her public criticisms of Obama for not being hawkish enough, worry me
I don't trust her to make the right appointments to office and the high courts either. By that I mean I don't trust her to fight to see that the right ppl are in power who will actually ? down on the banking/financial industry, challenge Citizens United, and champion progressive values/civil rights
One of my biggest disappointments with Obama was his administration's weak enforcement against financial misconduct -
The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »Spoiler Alert: Laissez Faire capitalism doesn't exist: it never has and never will. The invisible hand of the free market and the free market in and of itself is idealist nonsense.
Crony capitalism is a direct result of laissez faire capitalism; E.g., deregulation and globalization. Crony capitalism is an inevitable outcome when capitalism is left unfettered. Everything is for sale (including politicians) because "things will take their course."
But they wont take their course.
We are not on an even playing field as evidenced by our current state of being, and profits are not an effective measure of social well being when they are obtained by creating unemployment and declining living standards in one's home country (as well as the countries they exploit). But, you know things will just take their course. They will trickle down right?
They haven't and they wont!
Adhering to the idea that a pure and unhindered form of capitalism or socialism is best - is stupid. It's 2016, how about some eclecticism?
The government is a tool we can use to reign in all that ? if we can muster the ? to start holding those who are culpable - responsible. But people are too complacent or too scared to lose their place at the kids table to do ? . Which is why there is so much opposition to democratic socialism.
Contradiction much. But laissez faire was prominent in the industrial age until FDE took a stand against Monopolies. I agree with your point though a pure capitalism or socialism/communism system is horrible in itself.
Thought the ideas of Democratic socialism that capitalism is overall incapable of valuing freedom is foolish.
Laissez faire is an idea man. When policies are derivative of laissez faire we see what happens.
I worked absurd hours yesterday, so I'll expound later.
Laissez faire literally letting things take there own course without government interference. That was literally happening in the USA until FDE was elected. Business was completly unregulated.
Bruh, I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm aware of the history, the etymology, and definition of laissez faire. If you'd like to point to my "contradictions" we can discuss those as well as contextual clues, but I don't like playing semantics. We're both too bright for that ? .
Saying that it doesn't exist but that crony capitalism is a derivative of it. I agree as of know it doesn't exist and that such a system would be utterly ? but there was a time when it was practice in American and it led to widespread abuse of individuals by companies and corporations.
What I mean to say is that it's derivative of those ideas. Pardon if that was unclear.
It doesn't exist because it cant. If their was always a fair exchange of goods and services history wouldn't be rife with such inequity. Anyhow, I understand you.
We need the free market to check socialism. We need the government to check capitalism. Otherwise we end up with something untenable.
The end product of both seems to be the same, gross inequality. You can look to Russia on one end and America on the other as they have comparable inequity.
I agree with that but at the same time am weary of that line of thinking. No economic system can truly create a completely equal society. Not saying you are suggesting that just that overall alot of other people tend to think pure capitalism or communism/socialism will solve every problem and it just won't
I think that depends on the country's size. In America you're probably right, but in a country of >10 million socialism tends to produce much better results
I'm highly sceptical of that but do you have any particular country in mind to back up that claim?
Denmark?
No. Denmark prime minister even spoke out about it because of Bernie. It's a market economy
i got fam in Denmark, its very much a welfare state
That doesn't make it a socialist nation, nor does that make it better then capitalism. A market economy cannot be socialist. It has aspects of socialism as most capitalist country's do but it is not a socialist state
i'm not saying either. i'm just putting Denmark out as an example of a state with socialism. Those Scandanavian nations became what they are today due to the introduction of socialist parties in their parliaments and conscious decisions by their governments based on democratic socialist principles
btw the leader of Denmark is on the right and there has been a big push in the Nordic countries to become more market oriented for several reasons (mostly due to cost and economic productivity) -
CashmoneyDux wrote: »CashmoneyDux wrote: »Also that CEO analogy is wrong on so many levels. lol @ the notion that CEOs should earn that much because the business would fail without them. Word to Enron
Enron was an exception. Do you really think all these complex and large organization got that way without proper leadership and strategic planning???
Thats not what im saying lol. Coercion by industries has been a huge thing in the United States. dont play dumb you know this.
I don't support crony capitalism and government should be stamping that out as well corporations should not be sliding money into politicians hands to get favors -
Bernie sanders wants 12 weeks of paid vacation the norm horrible idea i am not paying anyone to doing nothing for 12 weeks and then when that person comes back risk them being out of the loop and incapable of doing there job for at lest another week.
Bernie sanders wants to raise the minimum wage to 15 and hour horrible idea because there will be many small businesses that simply cannot afford to pay there people 15$ and even more that will hire less people because of it FOR most industries there should be no minimum wage period.
Bernies sanders wants to make university free while that may sound nice in reality it could make having certain degree levels worthless.
just 3 of the horrible ideas Bernie sanders promotes.
2 out of 3...
The first two ideas are ? asinine. 3 mos standard time off is exorbitant; as is $15 minimum wage.
Id like to see links to these proposed plans
I do, however, think the cost of college can and should be drastically lowered. High school is woefully insufficient to furnish individuals with the basic skills to be successful in life.... And college is either an Impossibility or a tremendously expensive proposition for a vast number of Americans.
I will never understand the argument that highly valued skills that are in demand will suddenly become "obsolete" simply because they cost less to obtain.
If everyone has a high school diploma then having on is worthless you are going to need more the value is lowered because everyone has the same thing. What these people should be doing is focusing on is helping people increase skills not sending people to universities that will teach them useless ? .
AND I NEVER SAID HIGHLY valued skills will become obsolete once again people are inferring things illogically
So Universities do not provide their consumers with useful or highly valued skills? ...
Instead they only teach their students "useless ? "?
Interesting ... American history disagrees with you. Should college be abolished altogether?
Too much time is spent in the american university system teaching useless nonsense the benefit is not heavier than the cost. what makes a skill valuable is the demand for it and nothing else . government has to spur businesses into creating the demand but you cannot do that with burdensome taxes and increasing the supply of people with degrees. I rather hire someone with experience and no degree the whole point i was trying to make was that we should be looking into alternatives to university because they are time wasteful and expensive
^^^Why not change the education system to reflect some of the ideals you are proposing?
I agree that it is currently broken and expensive ...
But what you are talking about is still education, all be it imformalized and in more of an apprenticeship/ internship model... Paths accommodating Trades, targeted Skill sets etc
How does that HighSchool kid get that experience?
-Would you be willing to hire them as an intern for free or even compensate them to work at your company?
-How would they survive if they are not getting paid?
-How much time would it take them to master those skills without any formal guidance or instruction/Assessments?
-if training is company provided, what would it cost that company to maintain those programs?
We will always need education... We just have to be smarter with how it is structured. And we also need to adopt a system that doesent burden young adults with a lifetime worth of debt ... -
Bernie sanders wants 12 weeks of paid vacation the norm horrible idea i am not paying anyone to doing nothing for 12 weeks and then when that person comes back risk them being out of the loop and incapable of doing there job for at lest another week.
Bernie sanders wants to raise the minimum wage to 15 and hour horrible idea because there will be many small businesses that simply cannot afford to pay there people 15$ and even more that will hire less people because of it FOR most industries there should be no minimum wage period.
Bernies sanders wants to make university free while that may sound nice in reality it could make having certain degree levels worthless.
just 3 of the horrible ideas Bernie sanders promotes.
2 out of 3...
The first two ideas are ? asinine. 3 mos standard time off is exorbitant; as is $15 minimum wage.
Id like to see links to these proposed plans
I do, however, think the cost of college can and should be drastically lowered. High school is woefully insufficient to furnish individuals with the basic skills to be successful in life.... And college is either an Impossibility or a tremendously expensive proposition for a vast number of Americans.
I will never understand the argument that highly valued skills that are in demand will suddenly become "obsolete" simply because they cost less to obtain.
If everyone has a high school diploma then having on is worthless you are going to need more the value is lowered because everyone has the same thing. What these people should be doing is focusing on is helping people increase skills not sending people to universities that will teach them useless ? .
AND I NEVER SAID HIGHLY valued skills will become obsolete once again people are inferring things illogically
So Universities do not provide their consumers with useful or highly valued skills? ...
Instead they only teach their students "useless ? "?
Interesting ... American history disagrees with you. Should college be abolished altogether?
Too much time is spent in the american university system teaching useless nonsense the benefit is not heavier than the cost. what makes a skill valuable is the demand for it and nothing else . government has to spur businesses into creating the demand but you cannot do that with burdensome taxes and increasing the supply of people with degrees. I rather hire someone with experience and no degree the whole point i was trying to make was that we should be looking into alternatives to university because they are time wasteful and expensive
^^^Why not change the education system to reflect some of the ideals you are proposing?
I agree that it is currently broken and expensive ...
But what you are talking about is still education, all be it imformalized and in more of an apprenticeship/ internship model... Paths accommodating Trades, targeted Skill sets etc
How does that HighSchool kid get that experience?
-Would you be willing to hire them as an intern for free or even compensate them to work at your company?
-How would they survive if they are not getting paid?
-How much time would it take them to master those skills without any formal guidance or instruction/Assessments?
-if training is company provided, what would it cost that company to maintain those programs?
We will always need education... We just have to be smarter with how it is structured. And we also need to adopt a system that doesent burden young adults with a lifetime worth of debt ...
Understand me i am not saying education is bad i am saying that the system of education is bad and i would change it if i was in power but i am not. The bold is correct and government should work with businesses to offer more of those things and they should start while children are still in high school.
How much time it takes to master certain skills depends on what you are being trained for no problem with paid interns and i would hire high school interns as young as 14 if i could. The cost of such programs i believe would be far less than the ever rising tuition at some of these universities.
-
higher education needs a revolution we can't have young adults wasting time studying philosophy and literature when they just want to be a nurse or be network engineers.
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^^^ I can't disagree with that.
I'd venture to say we are saying virtually the same thing...
A. The Education system needs to be transformed (most likely with logical iterations)
B. It should NOT be nearly as expensive as it exists in its current form
Perhaps where we differ is the order of implementation of the above criteria.
I could take either requirement before the other...
I personally feel that the expense of our current system is far more destructive as a whole than the wasted time and lack of focus that currently exists.
At the end of the day, our current college system is adequate in preparing the majority of students who have the forethought and wisdom to choose valueable collegiate programs to major in.
Student Loan debt is the more pressing issue -
Honestly, how do people think that raising the minimum wage is going to make matters better? It has and will only continue to make matters worse. Raising the minimum wage actually hurts the very people whom people think it will help. All this good intention but no foresight. And if you think that unskilled-labor workers workers should get paid like skilled-labor workers or that part-time workers should get paid like full-time workers, then that makes no sense to me. The very real problem of one's income being insufficient lies not in the minimum wage but a host much larger problems. Even if raising the minimum wage was a viable option, it wouldn't solve the root of the problem. It's just a lazy and ineffective "solution."@ the bold no that is not what i am saying it's what you are wrongly inferring
OK, but I did say that it seemed that way, and there was some evidence to suggest that, but if you say no, then alright.and domestic policy is more important than foreign policy so being that Clinton is better on what is more important she is a better choice. I am implying that she is the best of 2 evils and nothing more.
As long as we agree that the best of two evils is still an evil.
But I disagree with your claim that domestic policy is more important than foreign policy, especially since we're talking about the president, who is, btw, the Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. Armed Forces. Imo, based on our very own Constitution, the president should have very little control over economic policies. We already admitted that if elected to presidency, then Sanders would most likely not get any of his economic policies through. And we know the reason for this.
First, as hard as it might try, the government cannot control the economy, because it's naturally controlled by the people/market.
Second, if any part of the government is going to exert ultimate influence on the economy, then it would be our law-making and law-signing congress, because the president's power is limited by the Constitution.
Therefore, domestic/economic policies aren't nearly as important when it comes to voting for the president as people seem to think they are. I mean c'mon, the president runs the most powerful military in the world, and we spend trillions of dollars on American imperialism, and you think foreign policy is less important?The decline of America and blacks people started with "the youth" a generation ago picking up an ideology that has lead to our current horrible state which is why i said " a long time now" what we see today is the fruit of the youth of back then believing in this foolish ideology and the youth right now still refuse to reject it.
I agree with this. People don't realize this, but America was nothing like what it is today. America was exceptional. But a couple of subtle revolutions under Wilson, FDR, and Nixon (to name a few) is continuing to effectively turn us into the UK (ironically enough), but the problem is that the US could never be the UK even if it tried its hardest. Meanwhile, Switzerland is becoming the old America. -
The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »
? what
So people don't deserve to be able to live
Most people working on somebody else dream just like they are
What about people trying to pay their way thru school to attain those higher skills?
People don't deserve anything at all in this world homie. If you have a mcjob or working retail at a mall or a job that any illegal could easily do then by default it's low skill and doesnt deserve it. Not that it shouldn't be raised to 11 but 15 is to much.The_Jackal wrote: »
Do Ceo's really deserve to make uncountable millions or billions?
The two are relative.
Same as other. Nobody in this world deserves amything. If its a non government run company then there board has the right to chose whatever salary they want
My ? I'm telling you, you have no chance to make a better way for yourself on 15/hr in the northeast
So if Bernie is telling these people you have to pay a minimum wage where these people are not damn near starving and you got a problem with that ?
These are the conditions that cause crime in poor areas...dont misrepresent my use of the word deserve -
CashmoneyDux wrote: »CashmoneyDux wrote: »Also that CEO analogy is wrong on so many levels. lol @ the notion that CEOs should earn that much because the business would fail without them. Word to Enron
Enron was an exception. Do you really think all these complex and large organization got that way without proper leadership and strategic planning???
Thats not what im saying lol. Coercion by industries has been a huge thing in the United States. dont play dumb you know this.
I don't support crony capitalism and government should be stamping that out as well corporations should not be sliding money into politicians hands to get favors
This is what im saying is the issue with capitalism in our country. Not that capitalism is inherently bad, but they way it is being manipulated is going to continue under Hillary and Trump. -
The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »Spoiler Alert: Laissez Faire capitalism doesn't exist: it never has and never will. The invisible hand of the free market and the free market in and of itself is idealist nonsense.
Crony capitalism is a direct result of laissez faire capitalism; E.g., deregulation and globalization. Crony capitalism is an inevitable outcome when capitalism is left unfettered. Everything is for sale (including politicians) because "things will take their course."
But they wont take their course.
We are not on an even playing field as evidenced by our current state of being, and profits are not an effective measure of social well being when they are obtained by creating unemployment and declining living standards in one's home country (as well as the countries they exploit). But, you know things will just take their course. They will trickle down right?
They haven't and they wont!
Adhering to the idea that a pure and unhindered form of capitalism or socialism is best - is stupid. It's 2016, how about some eclecticism?
The government is a tool we can use to reign in all that ? if we can muster the ? to start holding those who are culpable - responsible. But people are too complacent or too scared to lose their place at the kids table to do ? . Which is why there is so much opposition to democratic socialism.
Contradiction much. But laissez faire was prominent in the industrial age until FDE took a stand against Monopolies. I agree with your point though a pure capitalism or socialism/communism system is horrible in itself.
Thought the ideas of Democratic socialism that capitalism is overall incapable of valuing freedom is foolish.
Laissez faire is an idea man. When policies are derivative of laissez faire we see what happens.
I worked absurd hours yesterday, so I'll expound later.
Laissez faire literally letting things take there own course without government interference. That was literally happening in the USA until FDE was elected. Business was completly unregulated.
Bruh, I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm aware of the history, the etymology, and definition of laissez faire. If you'd like to point to my "contradictions" we can discuss those as well as contextual clues, but I don't like playing semantics. We're both too bright for that ? .
Saying that it doesn't exist but that crony capitalism is a derivative of it. I agree as of know it doesn't exist and that such a system would be utterly ? but there was a time when it was practice in American and it led to widespread abuse of individuals by companies and corporations.
What I mean to say is that it's derivative of those ideas. Pardon if that was unclear.
It doesn't exist because it cant. If their was always a fair exchange of goods and services history wouldn't be rife with such inequity. Anyhow, I understand you.
We need the free market to check socialism. We need the government to check capitalism. Otherwise we end up with something untenable.
The end product of both seems to be the same, gross inequality. You can look to Russia on one end and America on the other as they have comparable inequity.
I agree with that but at the same time am weary of that line of thinking. No economic system can truly create a completely equal society. Not saying you are suggesting that just that overall alot of other people tend to think pure capitalism or communism/socialism will solve every problem and it just won't
I think that depends on the country's size. In America you're probably right, but in a country of >10 million socialism tends to produce much better results
I'm highly sceptical of that but do you have any particular country in mind to back up that claim?
Denmark?
No. Denmark prime minister even spoke out about it because of Bernie. It's a market economy
i got fam in Denmark, its very much a welfare state
That doesn't make it a socialist nation, nor does that make it better then capitalism. A market economy cannot be socialist. It has aspects of socialism as most capitalist country's do but it is not a socialist state
i'm not saying either. i'm just putting Denmark out as an example of a state with socialism. Those Scandanavian nations became what they are today due to the introduction of socialist parties in their parliaments and conscious decisions by their governments based on democratic socialist principles
btw the leader of Denmark is on the right and there has been a big push in the Nordic countries to become more market oriented for several reasons (mostly due to cost and economic productivity)
OK then what exactly are we in disagreement with lol? Or were you just commenting on it?The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »
? what
So people don't deserve to be able to live
Most people working on somebody else dream just like they are
What about people trying to pay their way thru school to attain those higher skills?
People don't deserve anything at all in this world homie. If you have a mcjob or working retail at a mall or a job that any illegal could easily do then by default it's low skill and doesnt deserve it. Not that it shouldn't be raised to 11 but 15 is to much.The_Jackal wrote: »
Do Ceo's really deserve to make uncountable millions or billions?
The two are relative.
Same as other. Nobody in this world deserves amything. If its a non government run company then there board has the right to chose whatever salary they want
My ? I'm telling you, you have no chance to make a better way for yourself on 15/hr in the northeast
So if Bernie is telling these people you have to pay a minimum wage where these people are not damn near starving and you got a problem with that ?
These are the conditions that cause crime in poor areas...dont misrepresent my use of the word deserve
I'm from a top 5 violent crime city and still live there (Newark NJ) Went days hungry went nights cold. Still got my way out and having my college being completed paid for (military). Being low income doesn't justify crime in anyway and if you honestly can't find a way to make your life better or you don't aspire to then to bad. Not going to overpay you for a job that a child can do. There are hundreds upon hundreds of opportunities especially in America that people are to pride to take because I've been to countries where you really didn't have anyway to advance and I know America aint one of them -
Everybody don't want to take the military way out...that's a cop out for ? who don't believe in they self and I shouldn't have to sign over my life to the govt to make a better way
This the land of the free and opportunity, no ?
Why would you have a problem with minimum wage? What it got to do with you...raise your sights, I never understood ? who gaf about the minimum wage -
The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »Spoiler Alert: Laissez Faire capitalism doesn't exist: it never has and never will. The invisible hand of the free market and the free market in and of itself is idealist nonsense.
Crony capitalism is a direct result of laissez faire capitalism; E.g., deregulation and globalization. Crony capitalism is an inevitable outcome when capitalism is left unfettered. Everything is for sale (including politicians) because "things will take their course."
But they wont take their course.
We are not on an even playing field as evidenced by our current state of being, and profits are not an effective measure of social well being when they are obtained by creating unemployment and declining living standards in one's home country (as well as the countries they exploit). But, you know things will just take their course. They will trickle down right?
They haven't and they wont!
Adhering to the idea that a pure and unhindered form of capitalism or socialism is best - is stupid. It's 2016, how about some eclecticism?
The government is a tool we can use to reign in all that ? if we can muster the ? to start holding those who are culpable - responsible. But people are too complacent or too scared to lose their place at the kids table to do ? . Which is why there is so much opposition to democratic socialism.
Contradiction much. But laissez faire was prominent in the industrial age until FDE took a stand against Monopolies. I agree with your point though a pure capitalism or socialism/communism system is horrible in itself.
Thought the ideas of Democratic socialism that capitalism is overall incapable of valuing freedom is foolish.
Laissez faire is an idea man. When policies are derivative of laissez faire we see what happens.
I worked absurd hours yesterday, so I'll expound later.
Laissez faire literally letting things take there own course without government interference. That was literally happening in the USA until FDE was elected. Business was completly unregulated.
Bruh, I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm aware of the history, the etymology, and definition of laissez faire. If you'd like to point to my "contradictions" we can discuss those as well as contextual clues, but I don't like playing semantics. We're both too bright for that ? .
Saying that it doesn't exist but that crony capitalism is a derivative of it. I agree as of know it doesn't exist and that such a system would be utterly ? but there was a time when it was practice in American and it led to widespread abuse of individuals by companies and corporations.
What I mean to say is that it's derivative of those ideas. Pardon if that was unclear.
It doesn't exist because it cant. If their was always a fair exchange of goods and services history wouldn't be rife with such inequity. Anyhow, I understand you.
We need the free market to check socialism. We need the government to check capitalism. Otherwise we end up with something untenable.
The end product of both seems to be the same, gross inequality. You can look to Russia on one end and America on the other as they have comparable inequity.
I agree with that but at the same time am weary of that line of thinking. No economic system can truly create a completely equal society. Not saying you are suggesting that just that overall alot of other people tend to think pure capitalism or communism/socialism will solve every problem and it just won't
I think that depends on the country's size. In America you're probably right, but in a country of >10 million socialism tends to produce much better results
I'm highly sceptical of that but do you have any particular country in mind to back up that claim?
Denmark?
No. Denmark prime minister even spoke out about it because of Bernie. It's a market economy
i got fam in Denmark, its very much a welfare state
That doesn't make it a socialist nation, nor does that make it better then capitalism. A market economy cannot be socialist. It has aspects of socialism as most capitalist country's do but it is not a socialist state
i'm not saying either. i'm just putting Denmark out as an example of a state with socialism. Those Scandanavian nations became what they are today due to the introduction of socialist parties in their parliaments and conscious decisions by their governments based on democratic socialist principles
btw the leader of Denmark is on the right and there has been a big push in the Nordic countries to become more market oriented for several reasons (mostly due to cost and economic productivity)
OK then what exactly are we in disagreement with lol? Or were you just commenting on it?The_Jackal wrote: »The_Jackal wrote: »
? what
So people don't deserve to be able to live
Most people working on somebody else dream just like they are
What about people trying to pay their way thru school to attain those higher skills?
People don't deserve anything at all in this world homie. If you have a mcjob or working retail at a mall or a job that any illegal could easily do then by default it's low skill and doesnt deserve it. Not that it shouldn't be raised to 11 but 15 is to much.The_Jackal wrote: »
Do Ceo's really deserve to make uncountable millions or billions?
The two are relative.
Same as other. Nobody in this world deserves amything. If its a non government run company then there board has the right to chose whatever salary they want
My ? I'm telling you, you have no chance to make a better way for yourself on 15/hr in the northeast
So if Bernie is telling these people you have to pay a minimum wage where these people are not damn near starving and you got a problem with that ?
These are the conditions that cause crime in poor areas...dont misrepresent my use of the word deserve
I'm from a top 5 violent crime city and still live there (Newark NJ) Went days hungry went nights cold. Still got my way out and having my college being completed paid for (military). Being low income doesn't justify crime in anyway and if you honestly can't find a way to make your life better or you don't aspire to then to bad. Not going to overpay you for a job that a child can do. There are hundreds upon hundreds of opportunities especially in America that people are to pride to take because I've been to countries where you really didn't have anyway to advance and I know America aint one of them
CO ... ? ... SIGN.
-
I've yet to hear Bernie stans explain 1) how he's going to pay for all this free stuff and 2) how he's going to get the Republican speaker of the House to go along with it?
Bernie Sanders plans are like those spam emails you get telling you you've won a free trip for 2 to anywhere in the world. Some poor souls actually fall for it. That explains the handful of states Bernie's won, but people are smartening up now. -
All this back and forth about Hillary vs Bernie is irrelevant now. Hillary has essentially won the nomination. The real question for those on here that supported Bernie is would you rather live in a Trump-led America vs. a Clinton-led one? If you're willing to sit out or vote for Trump, I question your sanity.
For all the bashing Clinton has received, Sanders' candidacy has, at the very least, moved Clinton more to the left on Black issues, education, Wall Street reform, and expansion on healthcare. It amazes me that so many people were willing to fall for the "everything will be free" rhetoric Sanders was pushing without really asking how that would come about. It's definitely ambitious but a pipe dream. Saying things that sound good but could never really happen is worse than providing incremental change. Just the opinion of a ? that loves ? ....
