Obama Needs to Hear from You on Israeli-Palestinian Negotiations
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ThaChozenWun wrote: »And the whole ? is over a ? rock that two religions fight over because they think it's holy.
True, but Israel still kicked out over a million Palestinians when it formed its nation.
It has continued to steal land and build illegal structures on Arab land to this very day, on this very minute.......it's much deeper than religion, although religion is among the main reasons Jews feel the lands belong to them.
Reason number 7987798 why I don't respect religion. -
Maximus Rex wrote: »Very short answer, yes they did.
LOL......what did Palestinians do to deserve being kicked out of their homes when Israel was founded?
Did over a million Palestinians deserve to be kicked out of their housing in 1948? Really?
Do Palestinians deserve to have their water being stolen so it can be used for Jewish vacation resorts?
Does that sound right to you?
Do you think that's gonna bring peace to Israel? Really? -
kingblaze84 wrote: »True, but Israel still kicked out over a million Palestinians when it formed its nation.
It has continued to steal land and build illegal structures on Arab land to this very day, on this very minute.......it's much deeper than religion, although religion is among the main reasons Jews feel the lands belong to them.
Reason number 7987798 why I don't respect religion.
No it aint much deeper than religion. If Palestine had it there way it'd be the same thing, all arab no jew. ? has been fought over for two thousand years. -
Maximus Rex wrote: »Very short answer, yes they did.
you're a complete imbecile if you think the palestinians asked to be ethnically cleansed. You're so obtuse on this subject. You should just shutup and read book.
What Israel is doing to the Gazans is collective punishment and is illegal. There is a humanitarian crisis in gaza that is horrendous, and is the sole fault of Israel. Quit being a damn apologist and recognize what is happening is atrocious. You sicken me -
56% of the population are children. What did the children do to deserve this treatment. They cannot vote, they had no say on whether hamas was elected or not. They do not fire rockets, yet, they suffer the most under this cruel and illegal blockade. Maximus Rex, you are a disgrace to humanity.
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ThaChozenWun wrote: »No it aint much deeper than religion. If Palestine had it there way it'd be the same thing, all arab no jew. ? has been fought over for two thousand years.
It's deeper than religion because for many years, Arabs were very welcoming to Jews. There were large Jewish communities in Iran and Egypt, and pretty much many other places in the Middle East UNTIL Israel kicked out a million Palestinians from their homes in the 1940s to form Israel.
If Arabs always hated Jews, why were there so many robust Jewish communities in Arab land throughout history?
Jews got kicked out of many places in the ME AFTER Israel committed ethnic cleansing and stole land from its natives, Christopher Columbus style.
True, the land has been fought over for thousands of years in various degrees, but it would be a mistake to say all Arab groups were participating in that. -
ThaChozenWun wrote: »No it aint much deeper than religion. If Palestine had it there way it'd be the same thing, all arab no jew. ? has been fought over for two thousand years.
the zionist movement was a completely secular nationalist movement. The conflict, although with religious overtones, is mainly a political- territorial conflict. jews and arabs lived in relative peace for over 2000 yrs prior to the zionist movement. It was zionism that predicated this conflict, not religion. the Palestinian demands are for an end to the occupation by Israel, not to get rid of all Jews in the region. The distinction between Zionism and Judaism needs to be made, and further, one cannot claim that those against Israel as a state are against Jews as a people.
The vast majority of the histories of the Middle East and North Africa say otherwise with vibrant Jewish communities in almost every country but for Saudi Arabia.
Even now, there are many close friendships maintained by Arab and Jewish Israelis living side-by-side, as well as strong partnerships between Jews and Palestinians non-violently working toward peace.
It is factually incorrect to say that Palestinians want "all arab no jew". Forget that fact taht Arab is not a religion, there are jewish arabs, christian arabs and muslim arabs and prior to zionism they lived fairly harmonious lives together before the advent of zionist jewish arrival. -
56% of the population are children. What did the children do to deserve this treatment. They cannot vote, they had no say on whether hamas was elected or not. They do not fire rockets, yet, they suffer the most under this cruel and illegal blockade. Maximus Rex, you are a disgrace to humanity.
According to Rex, AIPAC, Sarah Palin, and most mainstream members of the Democrat and GOP parties, the children do deserve it.
Kids are worthless to most American and Israeli politicians, especially if they are Arab. Didn't you get the memo? -
the zionist movement was a completely secular nationalist movement. The conflict, although with religious overtones, is mainly a political- territorial conflict. jews and arabs lived in relative peace for over 2000 yrs prior to the zionist movement. It was zionism that predicated this conflict, not religion. the Palestinian demands are for an end to the occupation by Israel, not to get rid of all Jews in the region. The distinction between Zionism and Judaism needs to be made, and further, one cannot claim that those against Israel as a state are against Jews as a people.
The vast majority of the histories of the Middle East and North Africa say otherwise with vibrant Jewish communities in almost every country but for Saudi Arabia.
Even now, there are many close friendships maintained by Arab and Jewish Israelis living side-by-side, as well as strong partnerships between Jews and Palestinians non-violently working toward peace.
It is factually incorrect to say that Palestinians want "all arab no jew". Forget that fact taht Arab is not a religion, there are jewish arabs, christian arabs and muslim arabs and prior to zionism they lived fairly harmonious lives together before the advent of zionist jewish arrival.
Took the words right out of my mouth.......great post. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »It's deeper than religion because for many years, Arabs were very welcoming to Jews. There were large Jewish communities in Iran and Egypt, and pretty much many other places in the Middle East UNTIL Israel kicked out a million Palestinians from their homes in the 1940s to form Israel.
If Arabs always hated Jews, why were there so many robust Jewish communities in Arab land throughout history?
Jews got kicked out of many places in the ME AFTER Israel committed ethnic cleansing and stole land from its natives, Christopher Columbus style.
True, the land has been fought over for thousands of years in various degrees, but it would be a mistake to say all Arab groups were participating in that.
Well to the first thing.
They were welcomed in Muslim communities yes. But never allowed in or around where the temple is while Muslims had control. And that, right now is the land that is fought over. They still co-exist in other places.
And Judaism is what gave birth to both Christianity and Islam, so there were always a large mixing of Islam and Jew.
@ the bolded, again no. Jews and Persians have been booting each other off land long before Israel was Israel. They never ethnic cleansed anyone to start the whole thing off. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »According to Rex, AIPAC, Sarah Palin, and most mainstream members of the Democrat and GOP parties, the children do deserve it.
Kids are worthless to most American and Israeli politicians, especially if they are Arab. Didn't you get the memo?
I live in Canada, and is it fair to say that our conservative government, in the words of Yves Engler "is the most pro-israeli country in the world(diplomatically)"
I brought that up, cause the common argument used in favour of the blockade is to get the population to rebel and overthrow hamas from within or pressur them to stop firing rockets. But what people fail to take into account is that the majority of the population are children, who had no say in electing hamas and are the ones who suffer the most. The did not have the power to elect hamas, nor do they have the power to overthrow them, but yet they are still suppossed to suffer?
Reasding some of the accounts of life under the blockade litterally brings tears to my eyes. And it sickens me when people apologize for israels crimes, especially when they are completely ignorant of the situation. One only has to look at HRW reporst or Amnesty to gain some modicum of perspective of what condidtions are like in Gaza. -
ThaChozenWun wrote: »Well to the first thing.
They were welcomed in Muslim communities yes. But never allowed in or around where the temple is while Muslims had control. And that, right now is the land that is fought over. They still co-exist in other places.
And Judaism is what gave birth to both Christianity and Islam, so there were always a large mixing of Islam and Jew.
@ the bolded, again no. Jews and Persians have been booting each other off land long before Israel was Israel. They never ethnic cleansed anyone to start the whole thing off.
Good points, but Jews still had it pretty good in the ME compared to Europe.
If I was to give you a list of how often Jews have been purged and massacred in Europe BEFORE the Holocaust, you would be amazed. Europeans treated Jews much worse than Arabs have if you look at history.
Jews have been purged from Europe over 100 times throughout history......no other group minus Native Americans got such sick treatment. And here is the amazing thing....Jews often came to the Middle East to find COMFORT from the oppression they often got in Europe, especially in places like France and Poland. Anti-Jewish behavior is extremely common in Europe for some reason, but Jews got plenty of love from Arabs, with some exceptions obviously.
The largest Jewish community in the world next to America and Israel is in.........you ready........Iran.
Let that marinate through your brain for a minute.......and by the way, Jews are committing ethnic cleansing in Palestinian lands now. Ethnic cleansing goes beyond murder and genocide.....it is the active removal of people from their natural habitat (not to make this seem like an episode of Animal Planet, but you know what I mean). -
I live in Canada, and is it fair to say that our conservative government, in the words of Yves Engler "is the most pro-israeli country in the world(diplomatically)"
I brought that up, cause the common argument used in favour of the blockade is to get the population to rebel and overthrow hamas from within or pressur them to stop firing rockets. But what people fail to take into account is that the majority of the population are children, who had no say in electing hamas and are the ones who suffer the most. The did not have the power to elect hamas, nor do they have the power to overthrow them, but yet they are still suppossed to suffer?
Reasding some of the accounts of life under the blockade litterally brings tears to my eyes. And it sickens me when people apologize for israels crimes, especially when they are completely ignorant of the situation. One only has to look at HRW reporst or Amnesty to gain some modicum of perspective of what condidtions are like in Gaza.
It saddens me too seeing the accounts of Palestinians being massacred and attacked so often, for no reason most of the time. Innocent families are being left homeless by an evil Israeli govt that bulldozes homes just to make room for Jewish settlers.
SICK SICK SICK behavior.........and Arabs are completely helpless against this onslaught. Is it a coincidence some of them resort to terrorism? I don't think so. I'm against terror, but Israel is terrorizing Palestinians every day for land and water......it's a sick world we live in.
It's no coincidence Nelson Mandela himself has said Palestinians are being treated even worse than Blacks were during apartheid. -
Here is what Nelson Mandela said about the evil Israel is unleashing upon Palestinians..........
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/nelson-mandela-speaks-gazan-crisis
Memo to: Thomas L. Friedman (columnist New York Times)
From: Nelson Mandela (former President South Africa)
Source: http://www.mediamonitors.net/arjan28.html
Dear Thomas,
I know that you and I long for peace in the Middle East, but before you continue to talk about necessary conditions from an Israeli perspective, you need to know what's on my mind. Where to begin? How about 1964. Let me quote my own words during my trial. They are true today as they were then:
"I have fought against white ? and I have fought against black ? . I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die."
Today the world, black and white, recognize that apartheid has no future. In South Africa it has been ended by our own decisive mass action in order to build peace and security. That mass campaign of defiance and other actions could only culminate in the establishment of democracy.
Perhaps it is strange for you to observe the situation in Palestine or more specifically, the structure of political and cultural relationships between Palestinians and Israelis, as an apartheid system. This is because you incorrectly think that the problem of Palestine began in 1967. This was demonstrated in your recent column "Bush's First Memo" in the New York Times on March 27, 2001.
You seem to be surprised to hear that there are still problems of 1948 to be solved, the most important component of which is the right to return of Palestinian refugees.
The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not just an issue of military occupation and Israel is not a country that was established "normally" and happened to occupy another country in 1967. Palestinians are not struggling for a "state" but for freedom, liberation and equality, just like we were struggling for freedom in South Africa.
In the last few years, and especially during the reign of the Labor Party, Israel showed that it was not even willing to return what it occupied in 1967; that settlements remain, Jerusalem would be under exclusive Israeli sovereignty, and Palestinians would not have an independent state, but would be under Israeli economic ? with Israeli control of borders, land, air, water and sea.
Israel was not thinking of a "state" but of "separation". The value of separation is measured in terms of the ability of Israel to keep the Jewish state Jewish, and not to have a Palestinian minority that could have the opportunity to become a majority at some time in the future. If this takes place, it would force Israel to either become a secular democratic or bi-national state, or to turn into a state of apartheid not only de facto, but also de jure.
Thomas, if you follow the polls in Israel for the last 30 or 40 years, you clearly find a ? racism that includes a third of the population who openly declare themselves to be racist. This racism is of the nature of "I hate Arabs" and "I wish Arabs would be dead". If you also follow the judicial system in Israel you will see there is discrimination against Palestinians, and if you further consider the 1967 occupied territories you will find there are already two judicial systems in operation that represent two different approaches to human life: one for Palestinian life and the other for Jewish life. Additionally there are two different approaches to property and to land. Palestinian property is not recognized as private property because it can be confiscated.
As to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, there is an additional factor. The so-called "Palestinian autonomous areas" are bantustans. These are restricted entities within the power structure of the Israeli apartheid system.
The Palestinian state cannot be the by-product of the Jewish state, just in order to keep the Jewish purity of Israel. Israel's racial discrimination is daily life of most Palestinians. Since Israel is a Jewish state, Israeli Jews are able to accrue special rights which non-Jews cannot do. Palestinian Arabs have no place in a "Jewish" state.
Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.
Even Mandela knows what's going on........? Israel. -
^^^^ do you know if Friedman replied to that?
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now, my understanding is that you're incorrect and the answer is more like France or Canada.kingblaze84 wrote: »The largest Jewish community in the world next to America and Israel is in.........you ready........Iran. -
^^^^ do you know if Friedman replied to that?
Not sure to be honest. I'll have to do some research on that. -
now, my understanding is that you're incorrect and the answer is more like France or Canada.
I looked at a website that said that, but more sites say you're right. My fault. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »I looked at a website that said that, but more sites say you're right. My fault.
Iran has about 25,000 Jewish residents.
Canada and france have close to or more than a quarter of a million -
if my previous post seemed harsh, i presumed you had a source for the idea, just one that i thought was mistakenkingblaze84 wrote: »I looked at a website that said that, but more sites say you're right. My fault. -
ThaChozenWun wrote: »Concerning Israel, Yea I think we should stop ? with them.
I just meant we should still remain involved in it, not sending weapons or anything, but make sure Israel knows we ain't going to continue to support their BS and also let Palestine know that we won't tolerate their BS either. We could play the referee to the boxing match.
you do know the interest groups on both sides aren't homogeneous right?
the moderates in israel want a settlement while the hardline minature cup wearing conservatives seem to care about their precious jerusalem and west bank settlements.
fatah may agreed to negotiation then get accused of treason by hamas.
the middle east lost.
Just like Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Turkey, Iran, Egypt are complicit in making war against the Israelis.
you do known syria, turkey and saudi-arabia are not the best of friends right.
yemen has an internal insurgency of its own to deal with and doesn't even have the military capability to attack israel. -
Maximus Rex wrote: »That flotilla fiasco. This is Rex's opinion. That flotilla was sending aid to people in Gaza, that falls under aid and comfort for one's enemy in my opinion.
you believe syria and turkey are cooperating military. you obviously don't know how these two were at loggerheads ova a border dispute. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »True, but Israel still kicked out over a million Palestinians when it formed its nation.
It has continued to steal land and build illegal structures on Arab land to this very day, on this very minute.......it's much deeper than religion, although religion is among the main reasons Jews feel the lands belong to them.
Reason number 7987798 why I don't respect religion.
Jews were displaced from the middle-east too at the height of the conflict, till these days jews who lost property in libya, algeria, egpyt etc have not being compensated.
i know it's cool to hate on the jooos but lets be realistic here. both sides have contributed to the stalemate -
Jews were displaced from the middle-east too at the height of the conflict, till these days jews who lost property in libya, algeria, egpyt etc have not being compensated.
i know it's cool to hate on the jooos but lets be realistic here. both sides have contributed to the stalemate
The creation of the state of Israel led to two substantial population movements in the Middle East. Between 700,000 to 800,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from their homes, and forbidden from returning by the new Jewish state, while from 1948 through to the 1970s, around 850,000 Jews left Arab countries, with the majority moving to Israel. But the rough equality in scale is just about the only similarity.
Israeli professor Yehouda Shenhav once wrote that “any reasonable person” must acknowledge the analogy to be “unfounded”:
Palestinian refugees did not want to leave Palestine. Many Palestinian communities were destroyed in 1948, and some 700,000 Palestinians were expelled, or fled, from the borders of historic Palestine. Those who left did not do so of their own volition. In contrast, Jews from Arab lands came to this country under the initiative of the State of Israel and Jewish organizations. Some came of their own free will; others arrived against their will. Some lived comfortably and securely in Arab lands; others suffered from fear and oppression.
Some prominent Israeli politicians who themselves come from Arab countries, reject the ‘refugee’ label. Former Knesset speaker Yisrael Yeshayahu once said “‘We are not refugees. [Some of us] came to this country before the state was born. We had messianic aspirations’.” MK Ran Cohen, who emigrated from Iraq, made it clear: “‘I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee’.”
As well as the fact that Jews in Arab countries were actively encouraged by the Zionist movement to move to Israel, there is another big problem with the ‘swap’ theory – timescale. Dr. Philip Mendes points out how “the Jewish exodus from Iraq and other Arab countries took place over many decades, before and after the Palestinian exodus” and “there is no evidence that the Israeli leadership anticipated a so-called population exchange when they made their arguably harsh decision to prevent the return of Palestinian refugees”. Mendes also concludes his analysis by affirming that “the two exoduses…should be considered separately”.
But the ‘swap’ idea is anyway illogical. One refugee’s right – in the case of the Palestinians, a right affirmed by UN resolutions – cannot be ‘cancelled out’ by another’s misfortune. Furthermore, “the Palestinians were not at all responsible for the expulsion of the Jews from Arab countries” – while “the Palestinian refugee problem was caused by the Zionist refusal to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes”.
Given the historical and logical flaws, the only way this analogy can be so tempting for some is its propaganda value. The World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries (WOJAC), for example, claim on their website that their mission is simply “to document the assets Jewish refugees lost as they fled Arab countries”. Professor Shenhav, however, describes how WOJAC “was invented as a deterrent to block claims harboured by the Palestinian national movement, particularly claims related to compensation and the right of return”.
Dismayingly, but perhaps unsurprisingly, the US House of Representatives was persuaded to pass a bill in April 2008 that not only equated Jewish and Palestinian refugees, but also urged “the administration to raise the issue every time the issue of Palestinian refugees is brought up”. The Economist magazine described the non-binding resolution as having “doubtful value”, as well as showing “once more the power of the pro-Israel lobby in Washington”. -
Ironically Bus, I just came across this article that was posted today.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/two-jewish-women-to-be-allowed-to-visit-old-homes-in-libya-1.311723
