Obama Needs to Hear from You on Israeli-Palestinian Negotiations
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King, why are even entertaining the notion that it’s worthwhile to try to reach out to Zionists in honest debate? There has been zero evidence that Zionists will ever meet us on the rhetorical battlefield without resorting to propaganda, intellectual dishonesty, personal attacks and outright lies.
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Maximus Rex wrote: »
I have not posted entire articles whole cloth. Unbiased sources are those of historians, professors, educated people. Not websites ran and paid for by the Zionist Organization of America. But I bet you had know idea that it was run by them. And I bet you have no idea they support ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Do you really want to claim that a website, that hand picks certain quotes, out of context, with questonable truth and has a political agenda is unbiased. GTFOH
Don't read that site, it is nothing but pure unadulterated trash and has no veracity of truth. Read books or websites by resected sources. They are easy enough to find
So you clearly do not believe in human rights, international law or anything that makes a society civil.
Israel is not at war with Palestinians, they are an occupying force. Even Israeli politicians like Tzip Livni admit that, hell, even Netanayahu admits that.
Jews are in every middle eastern country except for Saudia Araba, they have thriving communities in all Middle eastern countries(except Saudi Arabia) and in many cases hold high ranking positions in governments. Such as in Qatar and Morrocco.
Dude, you've been cherry pickin', and takin' ? out of context for this entire thread. The sources and professors you sight are known leftists, socialists, and are vehemently are anti-Israel. Noam Chomsky? Isn't like citing Clarence Thomas or Alan Keyes for race issues. How are you going to talk about a "historical Palestine, when historically they weren' event there. I'm willing to admit the sources I cite may be biased, because basically all the site pertaining to a this topic have an agenda to push.
It's weird how you can quote from Ben Gurion where he says that "Israel stole Palestine," at face value. (which personally think was taken out of context and probably was,") but I have information saying the Arabs were encouraged to leave Israel, information mendacious and has no validity. Even though you can probably find the speeches in which these statement were said. You claim hypocrisy on my part, but you whole argument is the paragon of hypocrisy. -
Maximus Rex wrote: »
Dude, you've been cherry pickin', and takin' ? out of context for this entire thread. The sources and professors you sight are known leftists, socialists, and are vehemently are anti-Israel. Noam Chomsky? Isn't like citing Clarence Thomas or Alan Keyes for race issues. How are you going to talk about a "historical Palestine, when historically they weren' event there. I'm willing to admit the sources I cite may be biased, because basically all the site pertaining to a this topic have an agenda to push.
It's weird how you can quote from Ben Gurion where he says that "Israel stole Palestine," at face value. (which personally think was taken out of context and probably was,") but I have information saying the Arabs were encouraged to leave Israel, information mendacious and has no validity. Even though you can probably find the speeches in which these statement were said. You claim hypocrisy on my part, but you whole argument is the paragon of hypocrisy.
I haven't taken anything out of context. I have used sources, from books I personally own, which discuss the cause of the refugee problem for Palestinians. You sited a ? ZOA website.
Benny Morris is not anti-Israel, he is a pro-zionist historian from Ben Gurion University, and the most respected historian on Israel, who actually supports the forced transfer of palestinians. Simha Flapan was an Israeli Politician. This is just proof that you do not have an open mind or are willing to even entertain facts that go against your notions of what happened.
Like I said before, you cause practice intellectual dishonesty, and use out right lies that have long since been debunked. You're not fooling any person who has sound knowledge on the conflict.
You don't have information that has any basis in truth, just information that supports the lies you continue to purport. Instead of being a useful idiot, educate your self
You're just a useful idiot for the zionism. I'm done with your ignorant ass. You've been schooled so often in these threads its not even funny -
Here is a portion of a paper I wrote for my 4th year seminar on the mideast conflict which the JEWISH ZIONIST professor gave me top marks for and agreed with my statement
The Zionist movement came to Palestinian not only with a claim to the land as the Jews’ historic
patrimony in which they seek national self-determination, but with an exclusive claim which
denied the very existence of a Palestinian people and its rights and claims to the country. This
emerged publically and explicitly as early as 1937, but came operationally to the fore in 1947
when, before Israel was established as a state, before it entered into any fighting with the
Palestinians or was attacked by Arab armies, a decision was taken by the Jewish leadership to
take concrete military steps to ensure Jewish demographic ? in all of Palestine. As the
Israeli historian Ilan Pappe details in his book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (2006), the first
offensive operations begin in late 1947/early 1948. “Every attack [on Arab neighborhoods, towns
and villages],” according to one participant in the decision-making, “has to end with occupation,
destruction and expulsion [tihur]” (Pappe 2006:64). In March, 1948, two months before the
British departed, the Jewish leadership adopted its infamous Plan Dalet of expulsion. By the time
Israel declares its independence, 250,000 Palestinians had either fled or been driven from their
homes (Pappe 2006:119). It makes little sense that people leave their homes “voluntarily” for an
uncertain future, and, according to the premier authority on the matter, Benny Morris (2004),
there is no record of any call from the Arab leaders on the Palestinian population to leave their
homes. -
why do you guys believe your sources are unbiased?
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because well respected historians with access to the same archival evidence have corroborated each others claims whom would otherwise have more to gain from propagating the zionist narrative. They have copious amounts of primary source material to back up their statements. Solidiers who participated have concurred with their claims, it matches physical evidence, as well as supporting what Palestinians have claimed since day one. Why would Israeli historians, Israeli politicians, knesset speakers, and Israeli soldiers confirm the Palestinian claims if it was not true? What does an Israeli historian, who is an avowed zionist have to gain from promulgating a false history?
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but for the sake of argument and to take this in another direction, lets say that they were not expelled from their homes, but left by their own free will. Is this reason to confiscate their homes, their farms and buisnesses? To block them from returning to said homes, farms and buisnesess? To prevent them from every returning home and remaining refugees for over 60 yrs?
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because well respected historians with access to the same archival evidence have corroborated each others claims whom would otherwise have more to gain from propagating the zionist narrative. They have copious amounts of primary source material to back up their statements. Solidiers who participated have concurred with their claims, it matches physical evidence, as well as supporting what Palestinians have claimed since day one. Why would Israeli historians, Israeli politicians, knesset speakers, and Israeli soldiers confirm the Palestinian claims if it was not true? What does an Israeli historian, who is an avowed zionist have to gain from promulgating a false history?
are you saying it's unlikely he has a bias. -
but for the sake of argument and to take this in another direction, lets say that they were not expelled from their homes, but left by their own free will. Is this reason to confiscate their homes, their farms and buisnesses? To block them from returning to said homes, farms and buisnesess? To prevent them from every returning home and remaining refugees for over 60 yrs?
It isn't. i don't think anyone argued that was reasonable -
are you saying it's unlikely he has a bias.
everyone is biased in one way or another, but in this case, he is doing what all respected historians do and letting the evidence speak for itself and not letting bias cloud his findings -
It isn't. i don't think anyone argued that was reasonable
You haven't read Maximus Rex posts then, that is exactly what he is arguing. -
Pardon my ignorance and you guys can clown on me for it, but didn't all this go down in first place because of ? written in religious books?
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BiblicalAtheist wrote: »Pardon my ignorance and you guys can clown on me for it, but didn't all this go down in first place because of ? written in religious books?
It started before the books were written, but yes it was the beliefs that ended up being written into those books that caused it. -
ThaChozenWun wrote: »It started before the books were written, but yes it was the beliefs that ended up being written into those books that caused it.
For how smart humans are we sure are stupid. -
You deny the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in 49, despite copious amounts of evidence. That is an apologist
In the Boycott Israel thread you denied that ethnic cleansing was taking place in the Negev, despite claiming you living there. Who cares if drugs are distributed my Bedouins, does that justify expelling and destroying entire villages? NO. Again, apologizing for Israel's crimes.
You're an ignorant religous fool who knows nothign of the crimes your country commits and continues to make excuses for every action they take, in case your relgiously demented mind doesn't know, that is an apologist. Take your ignorant ass to the RnR where you and your Jesus freaks can have a good ol circle ? . ? ?
there was a war in 49. you calling it ethnic cleansing because the side u wish to identify with didnt win.
bedouin dont have villages ? . they are nomadic and dont usually stay in groups large enough or close enough to call a village.
when did i ever say ANYTHING wrong was justified? point it out muthafucka. direct quotes or shut the ? up with that apologist ? .
i have no excuses, im being FAIR. i never said CERTAIN israeli officials are blameless. what you dopnt like is that im saying the truth in regards to the same corruption in the ranks of palestinian leadership.
and for the last time...i dont have a religion, i dont ? with jesus and i dont care WHO DOES IT or who wants to act like a victim...WRONG IS WRONG. BOTH SIDES CLAIM THE SAME SPIRITUAL HERITAGE SO ALL THOSE WHO SUPPORT THE FIGHTING ARE WRONG FROM MY PERSPECTIVE. EVERYBODY WHO DONT AGREE WITH YOUR EXACT PERSPECTIVE IS NOT AN APOLOGIST OR A ? . i will repeat my non-apologist bottom liNe----ISRAEL AND PALESTINE BOTH HAD HOPED TO USE THE STRATEGIC VICTIM CARD TO SCORE RESOURCES AND INFLUENCE. THE ISRAELIS HAVE JUST BEEN MORE SUCCESSFUL WITH THAT ? . IF THE ROLES WERE REVERSED, PALESTINIANS WOULD DO THE SAME ? OR WORSE. WHY/ BECAUSE THEYRE BASICALLY THE SAME ? PEOPLE. -
^^^ I study this in school, I subscribe to scholarly journals, I have read, and continue to read copious amounts of books on the subject. I read as much news articles on the conflict as possible. I attend speaking engagements. I know what I am talking about on this subject
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King, why are even entertaining the notion that it’s worthwhile to try to reach out to Zionists in honest debate? There has been zero evidence that Zionists will ever meet us on the rhetorical battlefield without resorting to propaganda, intellectual dishonesty, personal attacks and outright lies.
I'm starting to think you're right. It's amazing how Israel supporters completely lack any compassion for the Palestinians who are having their farmland stolen along with their water and homes.
How can any person think Palestinians should LIKE Israel when Israelis are stealing their water and bulldozing their HOMES everyday.
LOL....it all comes down to their dislike of Arabs. If it was any other group of people getting their land and water stolen from, something tells me they would sing a different song. Israel is not making friends in the Middle East by doing so many evil and disgusting things to the Palestinians, and yet Israel's supporters always cry, "What have we done"?
Truly amazing to me....and disgusting. -
there was a war in 49. you calling it ethnic cleansing because the side u wish to identify with didnt win.
bedouin dont have villages ? . they are nomadic and dont usually stay in groups large enough or close enough to call a village.
when did i ever say ANYTHING wrong was justified? point it out muthafucka. direct quotes or shut the ? up with that apologist ? .
i have no excuses, im being FAIR. i never said CERTAIN israeli officials are blameless. what you dopnt like is that im saying the truth in regards to the same corruption in the ranks of palestinian leadership.
and for the last time...i dont have a religion, i dont ? with jesus and i dont care WHO DOES IT or who wants to act like a victim...WRONG IS WRONG. BOTH SIDES CLAIM THE SAME SPIRITUAL HERITAGE SO ALL THOSE WHO SUPPORT THE FIGHTING ARE WRONG FROM MY PERSPECTIVE. EVERYBODY WHO DONT AGREE WITH YOUR EXACT PERSPECTIVE IS NOT AN APOLOGIST OR A ? . i will repeat my non-apologist bottom liNe----ISRAEL AND PALESTINE BOTH HAD HOPED TO USE THE STRATEGIC VICTIM CARD TO SCORE RESOURCES AND INFLUENCE. THE ISRAELIS HAVE JUST BEEN MORE SUCCESSFUL WITH THAT ? . IF THE ROLES WERE REVERSED, PALESTINIANS WOULD DO THE SAME ? OR WORSE. WHY/ BECAUSE THEYRE BASICALLY THE SAME ? PEOPLE.
You seem a little less biased than you did in previous posts. I give you credit for that. I'm glad you have woken up to the many evils Israel is pouring down the throats of the Palestinian people.....I remember in other threads, for you Israel could do no wrong. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »I'm starting to think you're right. It's amazing how Israel supporters completely lack any compassion for the Palestinians who are having their farmland stolen along with their water and homes.
How can any person think Palestinians should LIKE Israel when Israelis are stealing their water and bulldozing their HOMES everyday.
LOL....it all comes down to their dislike of Arabs. If it was any other group of people getting their land and water stolen from, something tells me they would sing a different song. Israel is not making friends in the Middle East by doing so many evil and disgusting things to the Palestinians, and yet Israel's supporters always cry, "What have we done"?
Truly amazing to me....and disgusting.
or the inability of palestinians to transfer their suffering into propaganda. hamas doesn't help that cause when it brags about "winning" the war in gaza.
i got bad news for you memphis
JERUSALEM – Israel's hard-line foreign minister said Monday that his party will try to block any extension of Israel's settlement slowdown, a move that could derail the recently launched Mideast peace negotiations.
Avigdor Lieberman said the Israeli government must keep its promise to voters that the 10-month slowdown, declared last November under U.S. pressure in order to draw the Palestinians to the negotiating table, will end as scheduled at the end of the month.
The Sept. 26 deadline is a challenge for the fragile talks launched in Washington last week. The Palestinians say they will quit the talks if settlement construction accelerates, but not ending the slowdown could potentially bring down the Israeli government. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has yet to say how he will handle the deadline.
"A promise is a promise," Lieberman told Israel Radio. "We will not agree to any extension."
"I promise that if there's a proposal that we don't accept it will not pass," he added.
Lieberman's Yisrael Beitenu party is a key member of Israel's governing coalition, which is led by Netanyahu's Likud party.
It holds 15 seats in parliament, making it the second-largest member of the coalition and giving it the ability to rob the government of its parliamentary majority if it pulls out. Other coalition partners, and members of Netanyahu's own party, also favor resuming construction. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »You seem a little less biased than you did in previous posts. I give you credit for that. I'm glad you have woken up to the many evils Israel is pouring down the throats of the Palestinian people.....I remember in other threads, for you Israel could do no wrong.
never said that Israel can do no wrong...ive been saying the same thing for the longest. im just against all this victim talk like one whole group is just abusing another when its really a case of no honor amongst theives. just like there is a reason that the state of israel is not too highly favored amongst western nations yet they are supported for strategy's sake; there is a reason why the palestinians are cast as proffessional victims yet all them arab muthafuckas with all that dough and all that weaponry aint doing ? to help them. arab nations know that the most powerful of palestinian govt are full of ? just like its obvious the ashkenazis whose party tries to exercise dominion over the israeli govt is full of ? ...
but im not trying to hear no one sided solution ? when it aint a one sided problem. this is fact that i have observed and live not a ? hobby or academic pursuit. my life is at stake and hinges on me knowing the ropes of this whole thing and not just speculating from the side in an act of self-righteous political ? . -
never said that Israel can do no wrong...ive been saying the same thing for the longest. im just against all this victim talk like one whole group is just abusing another when its really a case of no honor amongst theives. just like there is a reason that the state of israel is not too highly favored amongst western nations yet they are supported for strategy's sake; there is a reason why the palestinians are cast as proffessional victims yet all them arab muthafuckas with all that dough and all that weaponry aint doing ? to help them. arab nations know that the most powerful of palestinian govt are full of ? just like its obvious the ashkenazis whose party tries to exercise dominion over the israeli govt is full of ? ...
but im not trying to hear no one sided solution ? when it aint a one sided problem. this is fact that i have observed and live not a ? hobby or academic pursuit. my life is at stake and hinges on me knowing the ropes of this whole thing and not just speculating from the side in an act of self-righteous political ? .
So dude, let me ask you something? Why is that people said with the Palestinians? Is because they see the conflict as yet another group of white people oppressing a colored minority. Personally I think that part of reason, on top of the fact that world doesn't like Jews. -
Maximus Rex wrote: »So dude, let me ask you something? Why is that people said with the Palestinians? Is because they see the conflict as yet another group of white people oppressing a colored minority. Personally I think that part of reason, on top of the fact that world doesn't like Jews.
because its the in-thing and they really dont have anything to go on but second hand information which is usually opinions of facts. and when they think of a jew or israeli they automatically get a mental picture of i laugh at other black folks side with them so-called palestinians when they dog the ? out of these guys- (see clip below)-and they were there before them or the ashkenazis.
people jus dont know the depth of what its really all about. they need a far away cause to bark about to relieve the stress of being impotent to change the war at home. ? need to mind they own business or at least go there and be about what they talking about on either side of the debate. -
there was a war in 49. you calling it ethnic cleansing because the side u wish to identify with didnt win.
bedouin dont have villages ? . they are nomadic and dont usually stay in groups large enough or close enough to call a village.
when did i ever say ANYTHING wrong was justified? point it out muthafucka. direct quotes or shut the ? up with that apologist ? .
i have no excuses, im being FAIR. i never said CERTAIN israeli officials are blameless. what you dopnt like is that im saying the truth in regards to the same corruption in the ranks of palestinian leadership.
and for the last time...i dont have a religion, i dont ? with jesus and i dont care WHO DOES IT or who wants to act like a victim...WRONG IS WRONG. BOTH SIDES CLAIM THE SAME SPIRITUAL HERITAGE SO ALL THOSE WHO SUPPORT THE FIGHTING ARE WRONG FROM MY PERSPECTIVE. EVERYBODY WHO DONT AGREE WITH YOUR EXACT PERSPECTIVE IS NOT AN APOLOGIST OR A ? . i will repeat my non-apologist bottom liNe----ISRAEL AND PALESTINE BOTH HAD HOPED TO USE THE STRATEGIC VICTIM CARD TO SCORE RESOURCES AND INFLUENCE. THE ISRAELIS HAVE JUST BEEN MORE SUCCESSFUL WITH THAT ? . IF THE ROLES WERE REVERSED, PALESTINIANS WOULD DO THE SAME ? OR WORSE. WHY/ BECAUSE THEYRE BASICALLY THE SAME ? PEOPLE.
considering that the ethnic cleansing started taking place before 48, the result of the war has no bearing on my feelings, except the result was that it prevented almost a million Palestinians from returning to their homes. Why don't you look up and see what Plan Dalet was all about. And as was said in a previous post, Benny Morris, on a map showed which villages - villages now destroyed - were forcibly expulsed. To deny that ethnic cleansing took place is being an apologist.
So you're denying the claim that a Bedouin village was destroyed.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/07/2010727133151458970.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/07/27/israel.bedouins.demolitions/index.html?hpt=T2#fbid=K3vLQYhbZ8q
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11430.shtml
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/police-destroy-dozens-of-buildings-in-unrecognized-bedouin-village-in-negev-1.304443
http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2010-08-06/negev-village-torn-down-for-second-time/
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11445.shtml
I Could find a hundered more links. Again, denying is apologizing, and giving tacit support -
because its the in-thing and they really dont have anything to go on but second hand information which is usually opinions of facts. and when they think of a jew or israeli they automatically get a mental picture of i laugh at other black folks side with them so-called palestinians when they dog the ? out of these guys- (see clip below)-and they were there before them or the ashkenazis.
people jus dont know the depth of what its really all about. they need a far away cause to bark about to relieve the stress of being impotent to change the war at home. ? need to mind they own business or at least go there and be about what they talking about on either side of the debate.
You describe people, pointing out and recogzing injustice as the in thing to do? This whole fallacy of yours about second hand facts, is nothing more than that, a fallacy. There is evidence of the atrocities, which you always deny take place. It's a ? tactic to try and dissuade the people from pointing out Israels crimes.
"So-called Palestinians" The Palestinians had a national movement, albeit small, starting in the late 19th century, 20th century. Groups of people define themselves, even Ben-Gurion differentiated between Palestinians Arabs and other middle easter Arabs, so you can cut that ? racist rhetoric out
By this logic, I guess people in britain and elsewhere fighting for abolition of slavery in the U.S should have just minded their own business right? GTFOH with this tired rhetoric. -
You describe people, pointing out and recogzing injustice as the in thing to do? This whole fallacy of yours about second hand facts, is nothing more than that, a fallacy. There is evidence of the atrocities, which you always deny take place. It's a ? tactic to try and dissuade the people from pointing out Israels crimes.
"So-called Palestinians" The Palestinians had a national movement, albeit small, starting in the late 19th century, 20th century. Groups of people define themselves, even Ben-Gurion differentiated between Palestinians Arabs and other middle easter Arabs, so you can cut that ? racist rhetoric out
By this logic, I guess people in britain and elsewhere fighting for abolition of slavery in the U.S should have just minded their own business right? GTFOH with this tired rhetoric.
being selective about the injustices you speak on to support your pre-existing prejudices is indeed the in thing to do and this trend extends across all kinds of social lines. ive said time and time again there is some ? with elements of the israeli govt. why you keep ignoring that ? ? maybe because it would force you to also recognize the other half of that.
palestine is a roman name. them people are mostly jordanian and you know that. why wont jordan let them in, smart guy? and all you aware that the people i posted ancestors been there in that land waaaay before the 19th century? people can indeed define themselves but if you hurt other people in the name of a false identity when you allready had a real one then you on that ? . that goes for ashkenazis AND palestinians ? .
and on that arab ? about different groups, no ? sherlock. but palestinians bang in the name of islam meaning ALL Muslims are supposed to help them by sharia. but that ? is a front and plenty arab and non-arab muslims know this. you cant learn that from a piece of paper.
you dont really give a ? about them phillistines or else youd use your investigative powers to expose hamas and the ? they on.
that little analogy you drew is false. first of all so-called palestinians havent went through a shred of what chattel slaves or their descendants went through. but on the second hand, if all those other countries (as they did) spoke out about slavery but DID virtually nothing to stop it or curb the after effects then yeah, they should have shut the ? up and mind their own business.
but ive allready said what it is. there needs to be a makeover in BOTH govts and then a unified state under common terms of purported adherence to abrahamic tenets. you ignored that the first time so i thought id say it again. when the truth comes out, it allways gotta be racist rhetoric. you siding with the vultures you like but the truth is that its just 2 groups fighting over some ? that dont belong to them. the palestinians are just weaker vultures thats all. the true indigenous peoples both groups have usurped are oppressed daily by them within their own societies and this ? never hits the news. you wouldnt know that unless youre there. and if youre just on some surface dweller "look ma i have a cause ? !" you probably wont give a ? either.
unless you know some arabic and know their culture, bet my life if you took your fake greenpeace corp ass to the palestinian hood talking about you down with their struggle they would beat the ? out of you, rob you and possibly ? you.
secondhand knowledge only gets you so far. you have to truly be around all of these people in their own environment before you can claim to know the ins and outs of their situation.
real talk.
i feel about as sorry for the palestinians who support this victim myth as i do the hypocritical israelis who get blown up while in resturaunts eating pork or in clubs on the sabbath. its a shame human life is lost....but none of them muthafuckas is doing what they supposed to do in the first place according to who they say they are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIXh5hvkCCE