Obama Needs to Hear from You on Israeli-Palestinian Negotiations
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Ironically Bus, I just came across this article that was posted today.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/two-jewish-women-to-be-allowed-to-visit-old-homes-in-libya-1.311723
do you consider a visit enough compensation. what if Palestinians were just allowed to visit land lost in west bank settlements? -
do you consider a visit enough compensation. what if Palestinians were just allowed to visit land lost in west bank settlements?
funny that you didn't respond to my previous post, but chose to reply to this one. -
funny that you didn't respond to my previous post, but chose to reply to this one.
i did read it by the way, what kind of response do you want exactly.
are you claiming a majority of the jews left by choice? -
i did read it by the way, what kind of response do you want exactly.
are you claiming a majority of the jews left by choice?
I am not claiming that, historians have made that assertion; that around 90% left Arab nations by their own volition. The main point is that the Palestinians refugees are not responsible for the Jewish refugee problem, but that Israel is solely responsible for the Palestinians refugee problem. The two claims should not be linked in anyway whatsoever -
I am not claiming that, historians have made that assertion; that around 90% left Arab nations by their own volition. The main point is that the Palestinians refugees are not responsible for the Jewish refugee problem, but that Israel is solely responsible for the Palestinians refugee problem. The two claims should not be linked in anyway whatsoever
israel is soley responsibly? now this is where we disagree.
fear mongering on the arab side contributed to the refugee problem -
israel is soley responsibly? now this is where we disagree.
fear mongering on the arab side contributed to the refugee problem
There is nothign for us to disagree on, you are flat out wrong. There is nothing to back up yoru claims except old zionist lies and propaganda that have long ago proven to be false. I am going to post you some excerpts from Benny Morris (Israeli historian, who actually justified the ethnic cleansing, cause with out it, Israel would not exist as it is) and Simha Flapan ( an Israeli politician) that will destroy this absolute false idea you continue to hold onto. Read carefully, so you do not have to continue to be an Israeli hasbarist and look like an utter fool parroting these lies that have long been debunked.
"In the opening pages of "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem", Benny Morris offers the outlines of an overall answer: using a map that shows the 369 Arab towns and villages in Israel (within its 1949 borders), he lists, area by area, the reasons for the departure of the local population (9). In 45 cases he admits that he does not know. The inhabitants of the other 228 localities left under attack by Jewish troops, and in 41 cases they were EXPELLED by military force. In 90 other localities, the Palestinians were in a state of panic following the fall of a neighbouring town or village, or in fear of an enemy attack, or because of rumours circulated by the Jewish army - particularly after the 9 April 1948 massacre of 250 inhabitants of Deir Yassin, when the news of the killings swept the country like wildfire." Article from Le Monde 1997
'In general, during the first months of the war until April 1948 the Palestinian leadership struggled, if not very manfully, against the exodus: "The AHC [Arab Higher Committee] decided .... to adopt measures to weaken the exodus by imposing restrictions, penalties, threats, propaganda in the press [and] on the radio .... [The AHC] tried to obtain the help of neighboring countries in this context ..... [The AHC] especially tried to prevent the flight of army-age young males," according to IDF intelligence'. Benny Morris
'Whatever the reasoning and attitude of the Arab states' leaders, I have found no contemporary evidence to show that either the leaders of the Arab states or the Mufti [Hajj Amin al-Husseini] ordered or directly encouraged the mass exodus during April [1948]. It may be worth noting that for decades the policy of the Palestinian Arab leaders had been to hold fast to the soil of Palestine and to resist the eviction and displacement of Arab communities' Benny Morris
"There is no evidence to show that the Arab states and the AHC wanted a mass exodus or issued blanket orders or appeals to the Palestinians to flee their homes (though in certain areas the inhabitants of specific villages were ordered by Arab commanders or the AHC to leave, mainly for strategic reasons)." On the contrary, anyone who fled was actually threatened with "severe punishment". Benny Morris
'In Kafr Saba [early May 1948], the locals, under threat from Haganah attack, wanted to leave, but were ordered to stay by the ALA [Arab Liberation Army] garrison. According to Haganah sources, the ALA, with the population of Ramallah about to take flight, blocked all roads into the Triangle: "The Arab military leaders are trying to stem the flood of refugees and taking stern and ruthless measures against them." Arab radio broadcast, picked up by the Haganah, conveyed orders from the ALA to all Arabs who had left their homes to "return within three days. The commander of Ramallah assembled the mukhtars [official leaders] from the area" and demanded they strengthen morale in the their villages. The local ALA commanders turned back trucks which were coming to take families out of Ramallah. .... Haganah intelligence on May 6 reported that "Radio Jerusalem in its Arabic broadcast (14:00 hours, 5 May) and Damascus [Radio] (19:45 hours, 5 May) announced in the name of the Supreme Headquarters: 'Every Arab must defend his home and property .... Those who leave their places will be punished and their homes will be destroyed.'. The announcement was signed by [Fawzi al-]Qawukji.' Benny Morris
". . . after April 1948, the flight acquired massive dimensions. Abd al-Rahman Azzam Pasha, secretary general of the Arab League, and King Abdullah both issued public calls to the Arabs not to leave their homes. Fawzi al-Qawukji, commander of the Arab Liberation Army, was give instructions to stop the flight by force and to requisition transport for this purpose. The Arab government decided to allow entry only to women and children and to send back all men of military age (between eighteen and fifty). Mohammad Adib al-Umri, deputy director of Ramallah broadcasting station, appealed to the Arabs to stop the flight from Jenin, Tulkarm, and other towns in the Triangle that were bombed by the Israelis. On May 10, Radio Jerusalem broadcasted orders on its Arab program from Arab commanders and AHC to stop the mass flight from Jerusalem and the vicinity." Simha Flapan
'The fall of Safad and the flight of its inhabitants shocked the [Palestinian] Arab villagers of the Hula Valley, to the north. [Yegal] Allon launched a psychological warfare campaign ("If you don't flee immediately, you will all be slaughtered, your daughters will be ? ," are the like), and almost all the villagers fled to Lebanon and Syria.' Simha Flapan
"The story which Jewish publicity at first persuaded the world to accept , that the [Palestinian] Arab refugees left voluntarily, is not true. Voluntary emigrants do not leave their homes with only the clothes they stand in. People who decided to leave house do not do so in such a hurry that they lose other members of their family -- husband losing sight of his wife, or parents of their children. The fact is that the majority left in panic flight, to escape massacre. They were in fact helped on their way by the occasional massacres--not of very many at a time, but just enough to keep them running." Glubb Pasha
"I have learned that the state of Israel cannot be ruled in our generation without deceit and adventurism. These are historical facts that cannot be altered. . . In the end, history will justify both the stratagems and deceit and the acts of adventurism. All I know is that I, Moshe Sharett, am not capable of them, and I am therefore unsuited to lead this country" Simha FlapanIn other word, what Moshe Sharett is saying that the "Jewish state" is incapable of surviving without lying to its citizens and the rest of the world; in fact it has been national security for the "Jewish state" to do so. This form of carefully crafted deception and lies is known in Israel by its Hebrew name: The art of Hasbarah.
And you Bus, have bought into it (Hasbara) hook, line and Sinker. -
it seems you consider the accounts that support your opinion the truth while the accounts that dispute your opinion are zionist lies.
is that right? you seem hellbent on castigating israel rather than proposing a solution to this conflict. -
Why did Arabs leave the new State of Israel?
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_refugees_arabs_why.php
The vexing question of the "Palestinian Refugees" is one of the perennial open sores of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinian Arabs. The Palestinians left their homes in 1947-48 for a variety of reasons. Thousands of wealthy Arabs left in anticipation of a war, thousands more responded to Arab leaders' calls to get out of the way of the advancing armies, a handful were expelled, but most simply fled to avoid being caught in the cross fire of a battle. Tragically, had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee and an independent Arab state would now exist beside Israel.
There are now claims from Arab sources that millions of Palestinians were pushed off their land by the Zionists, then expelled by the new State of Israel in the War of Independence in 1948, followed by similar Israeli policies that continue today. What is the truth of these claims?
The Palestinian tragedy is primarily self-inflicted, a direct result of the vehement Palestinian Arab rejection of the United Nations resolution of November 29, 1947 calling for the establishment of two states in Palestine, and the violent attempt by the Arab nations of the region to abort the Jewish state at birth. Palestinian Arabs have tried to rewrite the history of the 1948 war in a manner that stains Israel politically and morally. Their objective is to 1) extract from Israel a confession of the allegedly forcible dispossession of "native Palestinians" by "an act of expulsion," and then 2) to ensure the return of refugees to parts of the territory that is now Israel and/or to compensate the Palestinian Arabs monetarily for their sufferings.
But this cannot actually happen, however fervently Arabs may believe in it, because historical fact is not what they claim. Arabs left Israel in 1948 in large numbers, it is true, but not for the reasons that Palestinian Arabs put forth. Fortunately for history, during the past decade Israeli and other state archives have declassified millions of records, including invaluable contemporary Arab and Palestinian documents, relating to the 1948 war and the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem. These make it possible to establish the truth about what happened in Palestine.
A good example is events of the War of Independence period in the city of Haifa. When hostilities between Arabs and Jews broke out in 1947, there were 62,500 Arabs in Haifa; by May 1948, all but a few were gone, accounting for fully a tenth of the total Palestinian dispersion.
The first thing the documents show is that Arab flight from Haifa began well before the outbreak of hostilities, and even before the UN’s November 29, 1947 partition resolution. On October 23, over a month earlier, a British intelligence brief was already noting that:
* ... leading Arab personalities are acting on the assumption that disturbances are near at hand, and have already evacuated their families to neighboring Arab countries.
By November 21, as the General Assembly was getting ready to vote, not just "leading Arab personalities" but "many Arabs of Haifa" were reported to be removing their families. And as the violent Arab reaction to the UN resolution built up, eradicating any hope of its peaceful enforcement, this stream of refugees turned into a flood. Thus it was that, by mid-December 1947, some 15,000-20,000 people, almost a third of the city’s Arab population, had fled, creating severe economic adversity for those remaining who found essential services disrupted, causing both unemployment and shortages in basic necessities. As 1948 wore on, looting, infighting between rival Arab groups, and other disturbances made Haifa increasingly uninhabitable. The Arab leaders of Haifa dispatched an emergency delegation to Cairo in late January, warning that, if terrorist activity did not cease, the result would be the eventual disappearance of the entire Haifa community. Their warning had no effect.
There is an overwhelming body of evidence from contemporary Arab, Jewish, British, and American sources to prove that, far from seeking to drive the Arabs out of Haifa, the Jewish authorities went to considerable lengths to convince them to stay. During the fighting in the city in April 1948, The Hagana’s truce terms stipulated that Arabs were expected to "carry on their work as equal and free citizens of Haifa." In its Arabic-language broadcasts and communications, the Hagana consistently articulated the same message. On April 22, at the height of the fighting, it distributed a circular noting its ongoing campaign to clear the town of all "criminal foreign bands" so as to allow the restoration of "peace and security and good neighborly relations among all of the town’s inhabitants." On April 29, even Farid Saad of the [Arab] National Committee was saying that Jewish leaders had "organized a large propaganda campaign to persuade [the] Arabs to return."
As the Jews were attempting to keep the Arabs in Haifa, an ad-hoc body, the Arab Emergency Committee, under orders from the Arab Higher Committee, was doing its best to get them out. Scaremongering was a major weapon in its arsenal. Some Arab residents received written threats that, unless they left town, they would be branded as traitors deserving of death. Others were told they could expect no mercy from the Jews. Sheikh Abd al-Rahman Murad of the National Committee, who had headed the truce negotiating team, proved particularly effective at this latter tactic: on April 23, he warned a large group of escapees from the neighborhood of Wadi Nisnas, who were about to return to their homes, that if they did so they would all be killed, as the Jews spared not even women and children. On the other hand, he continued, the Arab Legion had 200 trucks ready to transfer the Haifa refugees to a safe haven, where they would be given free accommodation,clothes, and food. Sir Alan Cunningham, the British high commissioner for Palestine, wrote in an official communication to London:
* British authorities in Haifa have formed the impression that total evacuation is being urged on the Haifa Arabs from higher Arab quarters and that the townsfolk themselves are against it.
Syria's UN delegate, Faris el-Khouri, interrupted the UN debate on April 22, 1948 on Palestine to describe the seizure of Haifa as a "massacre" and said this action was "further evidence that the 'Zionist program' is to annihilate Arabs within the Jewish state if partition is effected." The following day (April 23, 1948), however, the British representative at the UN, Sir Alexander Cadogan, told the delegates that the fighting in Haifa had been provoked by the continuous attacks by Arabs against Jews a few days before and that reports of massacres and deportations were erroneous. The same day, Jamal Husseini, the chairman of the Palestine Higher Committee, told the UN Security Council that instead of accepting the Haganah's truce offer, the Arabs "preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings, and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town."
Palestinian Arabs bemoan "the uprooting of the Palestinian people in one of the worst crimes of modern history." But were they uprooted, and if so by whom? In Haifa, one of the largest and most dramatic locales of the Palestinian exodus, not only had half the Arab community fled the city before the final battle was joined, but another 5,000-15,000 apparently left voluntarily during the fighting while the rest, some 15,000-25,000 souls, were ordered or bullied into leaving against their wishes, almost certainly on the instructions of the Arab Higher Committee. The crime was exclusively of Arab making. There was no Jewish grand design to force this departure, nor was there a psychological "blitz." To the contrary, both the Haifa Jewish leadership and the Hagana went to great lengths to convince the Arabs to stay.
The well-documented efforts, indeed, reflected the wider Jewish attitude in Palestine. All deliberations of the Jewish leadership regarding the transition to statehood were based on the assumption that, in the Jewish state that would arise with the termination of the British Mandate, Palestine’s Arabs would remain as equal citizens. Israel's Proclamation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, invited the Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state:
* In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions....We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.
In the country as a whole, just as in Haifa, the first Arabs to leave were roughly 30,000 wealthy Arabs who anticipated the upcoming war and fled to neighboring Arab countries to await its end. Less affluent Arabs from the mixed cities of Palestine moved to all-Arab towns to stay with relatives or friends. All of those who left fully anticipated being able to return to their homes after an early Arab victory, as Palestinian nationalist Aref el-Aref explained in his history of the 1948 war: -
* The Arabs thought they would win in less than the twinkling of an eye and that it would take no more than a day or two from the time the Arab armies crossed the border until all the colonies were conquered and the enemy would throw down his arms and cast himself on their mercy.
The fabrication can probably most easily be seen in that at the time the alleged cruel expulsion of Arabs by Zionists was in progress, it passed unnoticed. Foreign newspapermen who covered the war of 1948 on both sides did, indeed, write about the flight of the Arabs, but even those most hostile to the Jews saw nothing to suggest that it was not voluntary. In the three months during which the major part of the flight took place -- April, May, and June 1948 -- the London Times, at that time openly hostile to Zionism, published eleven leading articles on the situation in Palestine in addition to extensive news reports and articles. In none was there even a hint of the charge that the Zionists were driving the Arabs from their homes.
More interesting still, no Arab spokesman mentioned the subject. At the height of the flight, on April 27, Jamal Husseini, the Palestine Arabs' chief representative at the United Nations, made his long political statement, which was not lacking in hostility toward the Zionists; he did not mention refugees. Three weeks later -- while the flight was still in progress -- the Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, made a fiercely worded political statement on Palestine; it contained not a word about refugees.
Throughout the period that preceded the May 15 invasion of the Arab regular armies, large-scale military engagements, incessant sniping, robberies and bombings took place. In view of the thousands of casualties that resulted from the pre-invasion violence, it is not surprising that many Arabs would have fled out of fear for their lives. The second phase of the Arab flight began after the Jewish forces started to register military victories against Arab irregulars, as in the battles for Tiberias and Haifa. Arab leaders were alarmed by these developments:
* On January 30, 1948, the Jaffa newspaper, Ash Sha'ab, reported: "The first of our fifth column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere....At the first signs of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."
* Another Jaffa paper, As Sarih (March 30, 1948) excoriated Arab villagers near Tel Aviv for "bringing down disgrace on us all by 'abandoning the villages."
* John Bagot Glubb, the commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, said: "Villages were frequently abandoned even before they were threatened by the progress of war" (London Daily Mail, August 12, 1948).
More than 200,000 Arabs had left the country by the time the provisional government declared the independence of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948. When the invasion by Arab armies began the next day, most Arabs remaining in Palestine left for neighboring countries. The Palestinian Arabs chose to flee to the safety of the other Arab states, still confident of being able to return, rather than remaining in Israel to act as a strategically valuable "fifth*column" in the war. A leading Palestinian nationalist of the time, Musa Alami, revealed the attitude of the fleeing Arabs:
* The Arabs of Palestine left their homes, were scattered, and lost everything. But there remained one solid hope: The Arab armies were on the eve of their entry into Palestine to save the country and return things to their normal course, punish the aggressor, and throw oppressive Zionism with its dreams and dangers into the sea. On May 14, 1948, crowds of Arabs stood by the roads leading to the frontiers of Palestine, enthusiastically welcoming the advancing armies. Days and weeks passed, sufficient to accomplish the sacred mission, but the Arab armies did not save the country. They did nothing but let slip from their hands Acre, Sarafand, Lydda, Ramleh, Nazareth, most of the south and the rest of the north. Then hope fled. (Middle East Journal, October 1949)
As the possibility of Arab defeat turned into reality, the flight of the Arabs increased, exacerbated further by the atrocity stories following the attack on Dir Yassin. More than 300,000 departed after May 15, leaving approximately 160,000 Arabs in the State of Israel. Although most of the Arabs had left by November 1948, there were still those who chose to leave even after hostilities ceased. One survey concluded that sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
The research done by Benny Morris in Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem is, despite occasional inaccuracies, more detailed and accurate than anything that preceded it. If we consider the facts Morris presents, it is reasonably clear that the flight of much of the Arab population from the territory that became Israel stemmed from battles between Arab and Jewish forces, and from the fears of Arab civilians of getting caught in the fighting. The Zionist leadership, Morris' research shows, correctly understood the danger that the Palestinian Arabs posed to the nascent Jewish state, and therefore did little to prevent their departure, at times encouraging or even precipitating it through political or military actions. In fact, Morris' own research does much to disprove the claims of his recent writings that what happened during the War of Independence was "ethnic cleansing."
The role of Arab leaders in urging the Arab population to leave is similarly well-documented. Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, declared:
* We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
The Secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah, wrote in his book, The Arabs:
* This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re*enter and retake possession of their country.
In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948*49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:
* Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.
Monsignor George Hakim, a Greek Orthodox Catholic Bishop of Galilee told the Beirut newspaper, Sada al*Janub (August 16, 1948):
* The refugees were confident their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile.
One refugee quoted in the Jordan newspaper, Ad Difaa (September 6, 1954), said:
* The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in.
Habib Issa said in the New York Lebanese paper, Al Hoda (June 8, 1951):
* The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy ? , for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean....Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.
And Jordan's King Abdullah, writing in his memoirs, blamed Palestinian leaders for the refugee problem:
* The tragedy of the Palestinians was that most of their leaders had paralyzed them with false and unsubstantiated promises that they were not alone; that 80 million Arabs and 400 million Muslims would instantly and miraculously come to their rescue.
In a few, exceptional cases accounting for only a small fraction of the Palestinian refugees, The Haganah did employ psychological warfare to encourage the Arabs to abandon a few villages. This insignificant element of the issue has been magnified by pro-Palestinian Arab advocates as if it were the whole problem.
The fate of these Arab refugees from Israel, a problem created by the Arabs themselves, is covered in this page from palestinefacts.org. -
it seems you consider the accounts that support your opinion the truth while the accounts that dispute your opinion are zionist lies.
is that right? you seem hellbent on castigating israel rather than proposing a solution to this conflict.
considering the sources I have listed would have more of an agenda to continue the old zionist hasbara claims, and have no reason to make it up, then i do consider them truth. And it is not opinion. It is well documented fact. Other historians have corroborated there findings, anyone can verify for themselves by checking into the archives, and there is copious amounts of other evidence available; phyiscal evidence such as demolished villages, photographs,and oral testimony from Israeli soldiers as well as the oral testimony from Palestinian refugees
Considering I made the thread, which was to take a positive action to help resolve the conflict based on human rights and international law with a petition to Obama, your last claim holds no merit. I have had to spend most of this thread educating the ignorant on the facts of this conflict -
Maximus Rex, that website displayed above is a farce. The website is anonymous, Occupied Territories is refered to as Judea and Samaria (that is a sure give away of who is writing it and why) and even Palestinians are in quotes ( and even bigger give away). Give me a break. Anyone can find a pro-zionist website to back up there claims. But intelligent people will be able to see how biased it is, if they know anything about the conflict.
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And yours are because they support your point of view and because you say so. ? be serious.
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Maximus Rex wrote: »And yours are because they support your point of view and because you say so. ? be serious.
I didn't quote an entire article from an obvious anonymous pro-zionist site that is not supported by facts. I quoted numerous well respected Israeli historians who would hve no reason to make up such accounts and back up their claims with easily verifiable sources. Unlike your farcical site that is clearly pro-zionist. It does not have one criticism on it of Israel. It is run by the Zionist Organization of America, hardly a non-biased and impartial site. -
Maximus Rex wrote: »And yours are because they support your point of view and because you say so. ? be serious.
The site you supported is biased as ? , while the sites me and Memphis have put up come from un-biased sources. Any independent website will tell you Israel forced out over 700,000 Palestinians when Israel was created. Israel is stealing water and building ILLEGAL settlements all the time.
Ask the United Nations and NGOs of the world how many times they have told Israel to stop bulldozing homes of innocent Palestinians and to stop stealing farmland from Arab people.
Than ask yourself why Israel has one of the lowest approval ratings in the entire world. You defending an apartheid, bloodthirsty, thieving nation like Israel is lowering your credibility on the IC....I'm taking note. -
Maximus Rex wrote: »And yours are because they support your point of view and because you say so. ? be serious.
I'm the only one who lives there and knows somebody from ALL SIDES of it and I'm never heeded when I speak on this. You posted the most realistic account of what the facts are that I have seen. The fact is that if it was truly ethnic cleansing going on, Israelis woulda have been wiped every single Palestinian off the map.Hating on jews is just the "in" thing for neo-cons and dumb local ? who falsely think they have a bead on international issues when in fact they are more under occupation than any Palestinian has ever been.
? quick to call shenanigans and cry about biased sources but stay getting their so-called facts from the arab propaganda machine. The fact is the Israeli and Palestinians leadership ? their own people over in different ways in expectations of sympathy gifts from the world. the israelis just managed to get more dough out of their version of this game.
How the hell do you live in a police state and start a petition about some ? thousands of miles away that you have no EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE of? Theres a reason why the Arab nations aint did nothing about the so-called genocide. Because they know what gets fed to you all is ? . The victims and the victimizers in the conflict are not seperated by lines of religion or ethnicity but rather by knowledge and ignorance- on both sides.
Meanwhile we hear nothing about Janjaweed.....
Hmmmm.......... -
kingblaze84 wrote: »The site you supported is biased as ? , while the sites me and Memphis have put up come from un-biased sources.
Unbiased like what? The site has quotes from Arab leaders of the time and nobody seems to mention this mass eviction. If there was this mass eviction, there somewhere saying these people had to go. Y'all love posting U.N. resolutions and other source material, but Israeli eviction notice to the Arabs is noticeably absent. As I said before if the Arabs were to leave why are they're so many of them in Israeli. What was the rationale in deciding who got to stay? The fact is you and other have a hard time believing that Arabs didn't want to get shot. Saying that these people would kept themselves in dangerous situation is to insult their intelligence. The problem and the reason why I really haven't been posting anything this topic is that source material is subject. For ? like I prefer encyclopedias and news sources. Where as y'all just seem to quote anything puts Israel in disparaging light. Why would the Arabs stay knowing that a war was coming?Any independent website will tell you Israel forced out over 700,000 Palestinians when Israel was created. Israel is stealing water and building ILLEGAL settlements all the time.
So the willingness to disparage Israel is tantamount to an independent news source. I haven't read this whole site, but on the section citing causes for the Six Day War, one of them was Arab evictions. Under your rationale the cite suddenly gains veracity.Ask the United Nations and NGOs of the world how many times they have told Israel to stop bulldozing homes of innocent Palestinians and to stop stealing farmland from Arab people.
I'm editorializing here, I don't think bulldozing the homes of terrorists is a bad thing. There are no "innocent Palestinians," These muthafuckas support the destruction of Israel and target civilians. If you're down with particular movement. You deserve what ever happens to you.Than ask yourself why Israel has one of the lowest approval ratings in the entire world. You defending an apartheid, bloodthirsty, thieving nation like Israel is lowering your credibility on the IC....I'm taking note.
I think it's pretty evident that world for the most part hates Jews. I'm defending the right of a nation to defend itself from an hostile intolerant people. These two factions happen to be at war with each other. I support Israel is doing whatever it feel it needs to do get these people to capitulate. These people created a ? up situation for themselves by constantly making war with the Israelis, now after constantly losing wars, the original partition plan doesn't seem like a bad idea. Part of problem is mean people think Jew, they think white people. Most view this an another example of white people ? with brown people. In actuality Jews come from a number of races or nationalities. Most of Jews in Israel are Sephardic (Semetic looking people,) but most of the people in government are of European descent. Even if the Sephardic were in positions of power in Israel, you would still have this problem because Muslims have issuing with peaceably co-existing with other people. And unlike y'all, if the roles were reversed and it was the Palestinians was subjected to this, I would the same thing. Were as I get the feeling you would make all of these ? accusations about white people being "oppressed." -
I'm the only one who lives there and knows somebody from ALL SIDES of it and I'm never heeded when I speak on this. You posted the most realistic account of what the facts are that I have seen. The fact is that if it was truly ethnic cleansing going on, Israelis woulda have been wiped every single Palestinian off the map.Hating on jews is just the "in" thing for neo-cons and dumb local ? who falsely think they have a bead on international issues when in fact they are more under occupation than any Palestinian has ever been.
? quick to call shenanigans and cry about biased sources but stay getting their so-called facts from the arab propaganda machine. The fact is the Israeli and Palestinians leadership ? their own people over in different ways in expectations of sympathy gifts from the world. the israelis just managed to get more dough out of their version of this game.
How the hell do you live in a police state and start a petition about some ? thousands of miles away that you have no EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE of? Theres a reason why the Arab nations aint did nothing about the so-called genocide. Because they know what gets fed to you all is ? . The victims and the victimizers in the conflict are not seperated by lines of religion or ethnicity but rather by knowledge and ignorance- on both sides.
Meanwhile we hear nothing about Janjaweed.....
Hmmmm..........
That's ? , and of course you will say it is the most realistic case cause you are not an impartial outside observer. No one is hating on jews, people are hating on Israeli policies of injustice and human rights violations. There is no debating that ethnic cleansing took place. And again, since you live there, you are more likely to have an agenda in defending Israells policies and past atrocities. And who gives a ? if you live there.
I would hardly call Benny Morris part of the Arab-propaganda machine, nor would anyone call Simha Flapan part of the Arab propaganda machine, nor Ilan Pappe, Noam Chomsky, Avraham Burg. The list can go on of well respected, tenured professors both of American descent and Israeli who acknowlege and prove that Israels policie prior to, during and post 1948 was to evict Palestinians.
And bringing up the Janjaweed is nothing more than a Red Herring -
How am I not impartial. We have physical and ideologically clashed with the israelis since our establishment in Israel. And one of our own was killed by a Palestinian bomber. I ACTIVELY promote peace from the ground up where the conflict is taking place instead of sending petitions to ? that cant or aint gone do anything to solve ? .That's ? , and of course you will say it is the most realistic case cause you are not an impartial outside observer. No one is hating on jews, people are hating on Israeli policies of injustice and human rights violations. There is no debating that ethnic cleansing took place. And again, since you live there, you are more likely to have an agenda in defending Israells policies and past atrocities. And who gives a ? if you live there.
I would hardly call Benny Morris part of the Arab-propaganda machine, nor would anyone call Simha Flapan part of the Arab propaganda machine, nor Ilan Pappe, Noam Chomsky, Avraham Burg. The list can go on of well respected, tenured professors both of American descent and Israeli who acknowlege and prove that Israels policie prior to, during and post 1948 was to evict Palestinians.
And bringing up the Janjaweed is nothing more than a Red Herring
Im not condemning or justifying no whole group of people or nation (besides a pure dictatorship0 because real life is not that simplified. I dont give a ? if "Honest Abe' came to lifer and wrote an article about the conflict. Im there and i have my own view just like they do. But youre on the outside looking in all across the board. What Im writing, what youre writing, Al Jazeera, Chomsky whoever---its a inevitably biased take on things we have witnessed, been in or heard secondhand. My bias is better than yours because its slanted towards my people- not Ashkenazis or Palestinians- and IM NOT RELAYING SECONDHAND INFORMATION OR BASING MY STATEMENTS AND ACTIONS ON THINGS I HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED OR BEEN DIRECTLY IMPACTED BY. -
kingblaze84 wrote: »
Even Mandela knows what's going on........? Israel.
And there it is, the true feelings come out. Just like it is in this country, the average Israeli and average Palestenian are nothing more than pawns. The problem isn't the people, it is the leaders who use and manipulate the masses for their own purposes. The Israeli government uses its people as a means to take as much land as possible. And radical muslims use the Palestenians as human shields in their war to exterminate the Jews. In our country the democrats and republicans use the people as a means to get and keep power. NEITHER PARTY GIVES A F*&K ABOUT THE PEOPLE, not President Obama, not Rush Limbaugh, not of them. -
Maximus Rex wrote: »kingblaze84 wrote: »The site you supported is biased as ? , while the sites me and Memphis have put up come from un-biased sources.
Unbiased like what? The site has quotes from Arab leaders of the time and nobody seems to mention this mass eviction. If there was this mass eviction, there somewhere saying these people had to go. Y'all love posting U.N. resolutions and other source material, but Israeli eviction notice to the Arabs is noticeably absent. As I said before if the Arabs were to leave why are they're so many of them in Israeli. What was the rationale in deciding who got to stay? The fact is you and other have a hard time believing that Arabs didn't want to get shot. Saying that these people would kept themselves in dangerous situation is to insult their intelligence. The problem and the reason why I really haven't been posting anything this topic is that source material is subject. For ? like I prefer encyclopedias and news sources. Where as y'all just seem to quote anything puts Israel in disparaging light. Why would the Arabs stay knowing that a war was coming?
So the willingness to disparage Israel is tantamount to an independent news source. I haven't read this whole site, but on the section citing causes for the Six Day War, one of them was Arab evictions. Under your rationale the cite suddenly gains veracity.
I'm editorializing here, I don't think bulldozing the homes of terrorists is a bad thing. There are no "innocent Palestinians," These muthafuckas support the destruction of Israel and target civilians. If you're down with particular movement. You deserve what ever happens to you.
I think it's pretty evident that world for the most part hates Jews. I'm defending the right of a nation to defend itself from an hostile intolerant people. These two factions happen to be at war with each other. I support Israel is doing whatever it feel it needs to do get these people to capitulate. These people created a ? up situation for themselves by constantly making war with the Israelis, now after constantly losing wars, the original partition plan doesn't seem like a bad idea. Part of problem is mean people think Jew, they think white people. Most view this an another example of white people ? with brown people. In actuality Jews come from a number of races or nationalities. Most of Jews in Israel are Sephardic (Semetic looking people,) but most of the people in government are of European descent. Even if the Sephardic were in positions of power in Israel, you would still have this problem because Muslims have issuing with peaceably co-existing with other people. And unlike y'all, if the roles were reversed and it was the Palestinians was subjected to this, I would the same thing. Were as I get the feeling you would make all of these ? accusations about white people being "oppressed."
I have not posted entire articles whole cloth. Unbiased sources are those of historians, professors, educated people. Not websites ran and paid for by the Zionist Organization of America. But I bet you had know idea that it was run by them. And I bet you have no idea they support ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Do you really want to claim that a website, that hand picks certain quotes, out of context, with questonable truth and has a political agenda is unbiased. GTFOH
Don't read that site, it is nothing but pure unadulterated trash and has no veracity of truth. Read books or websites by resected sources. They are easy enough to find
So you clearly do not believe in human rights, international law or anything that makes a society civil.
Israel is not at war with Palestinians, they are an occupying force. Even Israeli politicians like Tzip Livni admit that, hell, even Netanayahu admits that.
Jews are in every middle eastern country except for Saudia Araba, they have thriving communities in all Middle eastern countries(except Saudi Arabia) and in many cases hold high ranking positions in governments. Such as in Qatar and Morrocco. -
How am I not impartial. We have physical and ideologically clashed with the israelis since our establishment in Israel. And one of our own was killed by a Palestinian bomber. I ACTIVELY promote peace from the ground up where the conflict is taking place instead of sending petitions to ? that cant or aint gone do anything to solve ? .
Im not condemning or justifying no whole group of people or nation (besides a pure dictatorship0 because real life is not that simplified. I dont give a ? if "Honest Abe' came to lifer and wrote an article about the conflict. Im there and i have my own view just like they do. But youre on the outside looking in all across the board. What Im writing, what youre writing, Al Jazeera, Chomsky whoever---its a inevitably biased take on things we have witnessed, been in or heard secondhand. My bias is better than yours because its slanted towards my people- not Ashkenazis or Palestinians- and IM NOT RELAYING SECONDHAND INFORMATION OR BASING MY STATEMENTS AND ACTIONS ON THINGS I HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED OR BEEN DIRECTLY IMPACTED BY.
You really dont' think the President of the United States has the power to force Israel to abide by U.N resolutions, International law and enforce human rights? I know one way he could do it. Stop funding the Israeli apartheid state with 33 billion dollars over 10 years. If they did that, Israel would change its tune very quickly. And if 500,000 people signed that petition then I'm sure Obama would really think about doing something. But the tide is changing, its either going to be a two-state solution at the end of these current talks, or it will be a one-state solution for Israel.
You deny that bedouin villages were razed this past summer in the Negev, and you're there. Even though it was well reported, and had video evidence to go with it. YOu're bias is horse ? . You live there, and want to keep this holier than thou image of Israel, when it just isn't true.
This whole, you're not there, you rely on second hand information is a lame attempt at you to try and discredit what I am saying, but any intelligent an reasonable person knows that does not hold water. Everything I am saying is well documented and can be backed up by non-biased Israeli historians, soliders, politicians and citizens, people in the state of Israel. SO you can cut this second hand account ? out. This just shows your bias by trying to discredit anyone who has anything bad to say about Israel's policies and human rights record.
And currently we are talking about the ethnic cleansing that took place in 1948, so either you're 80 yrs old, or you're just a hypocrite and Israeli apologist. -
You really dont' think the President of the United States has the power to force Israel to abide by U.N resolutions, International law and enforce human rights? I know one way he could do it. Stop funding the Israeli apartheid state with 33 billion dollars over 10 years. If they did that, Israel would change its tune very quickly. And if 500,000 people signed that petition then I'm sure Obama would really think about doing something. But the tide is changing, its either going to be a two-state solution at the end of these current talks, or it will be a one-state solution for Israel.
You deny that bedouin villages were razed this past summer in the Negev, and you're there. Even though it was well reported, and had video evidence to go with it. YOu're bias is horse ? . You live there, and want to keep this holier than thou image of Israel, when it just isn't true.
This whole, you're not there, you rely on second hand information is a lame attempt at you to try and discredit what I am saying, but any intelligent an reasonable person knows that does not hold water. Everything I am saying is well documented and can be backed up by non-biased Israeli historians, soliders, politicians and citizens, people in the state of Israel. SO you can cut this second hand account ? out. This just shows your bias by trying to discredit anyone who has anything bad to say about Israel's policies and human rights record.
And currently we are talking about the ethnic cleansing that took place in 1948, so either you're 80 yrs old, or you're just a hypocrite and Israeli apologist.
people refer to the current situation so thats what i was referring to. i just said in my last post that we have clashed with the israeli gov't too but some members see what we are about and are cool. and we were talking about palestinians so why you talking about bedouins? not the same people at all.
? you think thats obamas decision to send that 33 billion? that ? cant do ? ...lol. thats like expecting a grrek midget with a big nose and a toga to deliver your Little Ceasars pizza. Hes a mascot- he cant do ? .
While you hyping up that conflict ? , you have no inkling of the places and social circles in Israel where there is peaceful co-existence as well as philantrophic and scientific acheivments made through arab-israeli co-operation.
the solution is a re-vamping of BOTH their corruupted gov'ts. you ego projection your sanctification of all things Palestine on me. theyre both ? up and have power elite who sacrifice the lives of the serf. obamas part of that ? ? .
the solution is one state after a revolution from within both sides to revive the rule of common Abrahamic civic tenets that all sides have in common. You barking liking that little paris hilton dog but its the wrong oak. -
people refer to the current situation so thats what i was referring to. i just said in my last post that we have clashed with the israeli gov't too but some members see what we are about and are cool. and we were talking about palestinians so why you talking about bedouins? not the same people at all.
? you think thats obamas decision to send that 33 billion? that ? cant do ? ...lol. thats like expecting a grrek midget with a big nose and a toga to deliver your Little Ceasars pizza. Hes a mascot- he cant do ? .
While you hyping up that conflict ? , you have no inkling of the places and social circles in Israel where there is peaceful co-existence as well as philantrophic and scientific acheivments made through arab-israeli co-operation.
the solution is a re-vamping of BOTH their corruupted gov'ts. you ego projection your sanctification of all things Palestine on me. theyre both ? up and have power elite who sacrifice the lives of the serf. obamas part of that ? ? .
the solution is one state after a revolution from within both sides to revive the rule of common Abrahamic civic tenets that all sides have in common. You barking liking that little paris hilton dog but its the wrong oak.
I brought up Bedoins cause you claim that being on the ground you now what is happening,when clearly you don't. So who's the ? ? And it also points to the continued ethnic cleansing and judaization of Historic Palestine. And also that in this age of information is it easy to verify what is happening, so cut the ? about you being there you know whats up. Your ignorant apologetic ass doesn't know a ? thing.
And Congress and Obama have the right to cut off aid to Israel, just like Nixon threatened to do as well as Bush Sr. But due to pressure from within the United states from the Israel lobby, it won't happen.
this thread is about the conflict ? , which consumes everyday life for palestinians, but you're to ? dumb and blinded by that hasbara to know that it does. -
I brought up Bedoins cause you claim that being on the ground you now what is happening,when clearly you don't. So who's the ? ? And it also points to the continued ethnic cleansing and judaization of Historic Palestine. And also that in this age of information is it easy to verify what is happening, so cut the ? about you being there you know whats up. Your ignorant apologetic ass doesn't know a ? thing.
And Congress and Obama have the right to cut off aid to Israel, just like Nixon threatened to do as well as Bush Sr. But due to pressure from within the United states from the Israel lobby, it won't happen.
this thread is about the conflict ? , which consumes everyday life for palestinians, but you're to ? dumb and blinded by that hasbara to know that it does.
LOL. Thanks for not reading my posts. Still calling me and apologist.....Up your comprehension game.
And where did you get the false notion i was unaware of the bedouin incident or defending the people responsible.bet you didnt know that besides for russians most drugs in the region are transported and distributed by bedouin who travel through the mountains behind my village towing goats packed with heroin, ecstacy, weed and hash. that coulda been a trafficking camp for all we know. or maybe they were innocents and the gov't did some ? ? . it sums up that there are no real victims as far as a "side" but the victims are the average jo whos spot gets made hot by a few ? who got they own agenda. youre a ? . -
LOL. Thanks for not reading my posts. Still calling me and apologist.....Up your comprehension game.
And where did you get the false notion i was unaware of the bedouin incident or defending the people responsible.bet you didnt know that besides for russians most drugs in the region are transported and distributed by bedouin who travel through the mountains behind my village towing goats packed with heroin, ecstacy, weed and hash. that coulda been a trafficking camp for all we know. or maybe they were innocents and the gov't did some ? ? . it sums up that there are no real victims as far as a "side" but the victims are the average jo whos spot gets made hot by a few ? who got they own agenda. youre a ? .
You deny the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in 49, despite copious amounts of evidence. That is an apologist
In the Boycott Israel thread you denied that ethnic cleansing was taking place in the Negev, despite claiming you living there. Who cares if drugs are distributed my Bedouins, does that justify expelling and destroying entire villages? NO. Again, apologizing for Israel's crimes.
You're an ignorant religous fool who knows nothign of the crimes your country commits and continues to make excuses for every action they take, in case your relgiously demented mind doesn't know, that is an apologist. Take your ignorant ass to the RnR where you and your Jesus freaks can have a good ol circle ? . ? ?
