Rapper Ranking Project: Rapper #3 - Tupac
Options
The Lonious Monk
Members Posts: 26,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
Same rules as before.
Previous Scores:
Notorious BIG - 37.5*
Jay-Z - 36.5
Tupac Shakur
Lyrics (5) - Tupac's songs tended to be packed with meaning and messages (good and bad) and he was able to deliver strongly through his words. Very few rappers have been as prolific has him and still manage to deliver strong lyrics in nearly every song.
Delivery (4) - Tupac could ride the beat nicely and demonstrated on numerous occasions that he had the ability to flip different flows to fit a variety of beats and production styles. That said, his flow wasn't quite as dynamic as you may see with some of the top not deliverers. He didn't use many of the other tricks like vocal tone alteration or flow switching that you may hear from the best of the best in this area.
Language (3.5) - Tupac had some capability here, but his lyrics were typically very straight forward. While he always delivered strong lyrics, he didn't necessarily always craft those lyrics in clever ways.
Storytelling (3.5) - Tupac proved that he was a good storyteller with tracks like Brenda's Got a Baby, but stories weren't necessarily his forte. Tupac has a ton of classic songs, but very few of them are stories. He's good but he doesn't measure up against the great storytellers, at least not in body of work.
Catalog (5*) - He's had a ton of work come out since his death. They range for "cobbled together" to "good." I won't really consider that here. Every artist has a ton of tracks they don't release, usually for good reason. We can't really judge Pac on music that he may well have never put out had he not been killed prematurely. Instead this is based on the 5 albums put out (or intended to put out) while he was still alive. 5 is a decent number to judge an artist on and all 5 of his albums are classic or near classic and were successful for when they came out. Even if you don't agree they were all classics, you have to agree that he had classics, and most will probably agree that none of his albums are wack.
Subject Matter (4.5 5) - Tupac was pretty versatile when it came to subjects. While many may he know him for his "Thug this and Thug that" era. If you look at his body of work, he touches on a variety of conscious topics like black on black crime, poverty, police brutality, and racism. Of course, that's balanced out by songs about sex, drugs, money, and violence. It's the dichotomy of Tupac. He still falls short of some artists that literally seem to write songs about any and everything, but he's still strong in this area.
Creativity (3) - Tupac has songs like Me and My Girlfriend that are creative. He was also good at taking concepts and building good songs around them. So he's capable in this area, but again when you look at his body of work, he plays it pretty straight and safe. He made a lot of powerful and meaningful songs, but he didn't really do anything with them to make them unique.
Collaboration (3.5) - He collaborated with a lot of people, but they weren't always the strongest rappers. Alongside them, he stood out. When he was alongside stronger rappers like the Dogg Pound or Red & ? , his verses didn't seem all that impressive. That's not to say he didn't stand out, you just can't find many examples of him merking other dope MCs on a track.
Impact (5*) - Tupac is like the Hip Hop Elvis in the sense that his death catapulted him into a mythical status, so it's difficult to separate his impact as a rapper from the impact caused by his death. Still even when he was alive, he had a larger than life presence. To be fair, that was as much due to his lifestyle and the things he went through as it was to his music. But that music was basically a soundtrack to his life and kinda painted a backdrop for the things he went through. Another thing to note about him is that his popularity was high everywhere. Where some artists are looked at as legends in their hometowns, but are simply just great rappers everywhere else. Tupac was iconic everywhere North, South, East, and West. This is shown in the way so many try to emulate him and be the new Tupac. He didn't break sales records like many others, but his music has stood the test of time and is even studied on college campuses. That's pretty big.
Overall Score - 37 37.5*
*Note - Like with Biggie, his death has affected certain categories for him. However, Pac had a larger body of work before dying than Biggie did and had been around for longer, so it's easier to draw conclusions about him without his death adversely affecting things too much. That said, there are a couple areas where his death and some of the circumstances surrounding his death may have affected the score, so I gotta put a asterisk on this score.
Next Rapper - Nas
So the way this works is I'll open each discussion for each rapper by scoring that rapper in the categories listed below. I will provide reasoning for the scores and everyone can discuss. If you believe my score for an area needs to be adjusted, make the argument for it. If you get a lot of support (i.e., cosigns or posts in agreement), I'll adjust the score accordingly and keep it up til there is somewhat of a consensus. If there is no real consensus I'll just make a judgement call. I think anyone whose seen my posts on here will agree I at least try to be objective. I'll do the same here. Each area will be scored from 1 to 5 with 1 being Wack and 5 being Elite. The areas that will be scored are:
Lyrics - The strength of writing. How complex are the rapper's lyrics? How well does he or she deliver a message? Does he or she have a unique style of lacing words or is he or she like everyone else?
Delivery - Flow, voice, ability to ride a variety of beats. Does the rapper consistently sound good when rapping? Can the rapper ride a variety of beats? Can the rapper switch flows easily and regularly between songs or even on the same song?
Language - wordplay, vocabulary, use of figurative language (e.g. metaphors). How clever is the rapper with the way he or she makes a point? Are the rapper's lines slick or are they usually plain in nature?
Storytelling - Ability to deliver a cohesive narrative. Can the rapper tell a story that makes sense? Has the rapper displayed the capability regularly? Do the stories make sense and are they interesting?
Catalog - The rapper's body of work. How many classics does the rapper have? How many trash albums? On average what is the overall quality of the catalog?
Subject Matter - What the rapper raps about. Is the rapper capable of speaking on a variety of topics? Does the rapper regularly mix up different topics? Does the rapper sound out of place when addressing certain topics.
Creativity - What separates the rapper from the pack. Does the rapper have a history for bringing a unique sound? Does the rapper make unique songs or apply unusual concepts? Does the rapper address unique topics or address topics in a unique manner.
Collaboration - Presence when rapping with others. How often has the rapper outshine others on a track? How often has the rapper been owned? Does the rapper collab with other strong rappers and hold his or her own?
Impact - How much the rapper has influenced the game. Has the rapper sold a lot or made well received albums? Has the rapper's work or style changed the culture? Has the rapper's characteristics (e.g., style, flow, persona) been copied or imitated?
Lyrics - The strength of writing. How complex are the rapper's lyrics? How well does he or she deliver a message? Does he or she have a unique style of lacing words or is he or she like everyone else?
Delivery - Flow, voice, ability to ride a variety of beats. Does the rapper consistently sound good when rapping? Can the rapper ride a variety of beats? Can the rapper switch flows easily and regularly between songs or even on the same song?
Language - wordplay, vocabulary, use of figurative language (e.g. metaphors). How clever is the rapper with the way he or she makes a point? Are the rapper's lines slick or are they usually plain in nature?
Storytelling - Ability to deliver a cohesive narrative. Can the rapper tell a story that makes sense? Has the rapper displayed the capability regularly? Do the stories make sense and are they interesting?
Catalog - The rapper's body of work. How many classics does the rapper have? How many trash albums? On average what is the overall quality of the catalog?
Subject Matter - What the rapper raps about. Is the rapper capable of speaking on a variety of topics? Does the rapper regularly mix up different topics? Does the rapper sound out of place when addressing certain topics.
Creativity - What separates the rapper from the pack. Does the rapper have a history for bringing a unique sound? Does the rapper make unique songs or apply unusual concepts? Does the rapper address unique topics or address topics in a unique manner.
Collaboration - Presence when rapping with others. How often has the rapper outshine others on a track? How often has the rapper been owned? Does the rapper collab with other strong rappers and hold his or her own?
Impact - How much the rapper has influenced the game. Has the rapper sold a lot or made well received albums? Has the rapper's work or style changed the culture? Has the rapper's characteristics (e.g., style, flow, persona) been copied or imitated?
Previous Scores:
Notorious BIG - 37.5*
Jay-Z - 36.5
Tupac Shakur
Lyrics (5) - Tupac's songs tended to be packed with meaning and messages (good and bad) and he was able to deliver strongly through his words. Very few rappers have been as prolific has him and still manage to deliver strong lyrics in nearly every song.
Delivery (4) - Tupac could ride the beat nicely and demonstrated on numerous occasions that he had the ability to flip different flows to fit a variety of beats and production styles. That said, his flow wasn't quite as dynamic as you may see with some of the top not deliverers. He didn't use many of the other tricks like vocal tone alteration or flow switching that you may hear from the best of the best in this area.
Language (3.5) - Tupac had some capability here, but his lyrics were typically very straight forward. While he always delivered strong lyrics, he didn't necessarily always craft those lyrics in clever ways.
Storytelling (3.5) - Tupac proved that he was a good storyteller with tracks like Brenda's Got a Baby, but stories weren't necessarily his forte. Tupac has a ton of classic songs, but very few of them are stories. He's good but he doesn't measure up against the great storytellers, at least not in body of work.
Catalog (5*) - He's had a ton of work come out since his death. They range for "cobbled together" to "good." I won't really consider that here. Every artist has a ton of tracks they don't release, usually for good reason. We can't really judge Pac on music that he may well have never put out had he not been killed prematurely. Instead this is based on the 5 albums put out (or intended to put out) while he was still alive. 5 is a decent number to judge an artist on and all 5 of his albums are classic or near classic and were successful for when they came out. Even if you don't agree they were all classics, you have to agree that he had classics, and most will probably agree that none of his albums are wack.
Subject Matter (4.5 5) - Tupac was pretty versatile when it came to subjects. While many may he know him for his "Thug this and Thug that" era. If you look at his body of work, he touches on a variety of conscious topics like black on black crime, poverty, police brutality, and racism. Of course, that's balanced out by songs about sex, drugs, money, and violence. It's the dichotomy of Tupac. He still falls short of some artists that literally seem to write songs about any and everything, but he's still strong in this area.
Creativity (3) - Tupac has songs like Me and My Girlfriend that are creative. He was also good at taking concepts and building good songs around them. So he's capable in this area, but again when you look at his body of work, he plays it pretty straight and safe. He made a lot of powerful and meaningful songs, but he didn't really do anything with them to make them unique.
Collaboration (3.5) - He collaborated with a lot of people, but they weren't always the strongest rappers. Alongside them, he stood out. When he was alongside stronger rappers like the Dogg Pound or Red & ? , his verses didn't seem all that impressive. That's not to say he didn't stand out, you just can't find many examples of him merking other dope MCs on a track.
Impact (5*) - Tupac is like the Hip Hop Elvis in the sense that his death catapulted him into a mythical status, so it's difficult to separate his impact as a rapper from the impact caused by his death. Still even when he was alive, he had a larger than life presence. To be fair, that was as much due to his lifestyle and the things he went through as it was to his music. But that music was basically a soundtrack to his life and kinda painted a backdrop for the things he went through. Another thing to note about him is that his popularity was high everywhere. Where some artists are looked at as legends in their hometowns, but are simply just great rappers everywhere else. Tupac was iconic everywhere North, South, East, and West. This is shown in the way so many try to emulate him and be the new Tupac. He didn't break sales records like many others, but his music has stood the test of time and is even studied on college campuses. That's pretty big.
Overall Score - 37 37.5*
*Note - Like with Biggie, his death has affected certain categories for him. However, Pac had a larger body of work before dying than Biggie did and had been around for longer, so it's easier to draw conclusions about him without his death adversely affecting things too much. That said, there are a couple areas where his death and some of the circumstances surrounding his death may have affected the score, so I gotta put a asterisk on this score.
Next Rapper - Nas
Comments
-
I'd just like to point out that this is proof that I'm being objective and judging based on the rappers performance in these categories and not on how they measure up to other rappers. In my personal opinion, Tupac is not better than Jay. However, the score is the score. I checked like 3 times to make sure I didn't screw it up. I don't think I overrated him anywhere, but as always everything is up for debate, so have at it.
-
New York bias is disgusting
Pac should be equal with Big ! -
How U got PAC a 5 for lyrics but a 3.5 for story telling?
How old are u, that's backward as ? -
Lyrics-4
Delivery-5
Language-3
Storytelling-3
Catalog-3.5
Subject matter-5
Creativity-4
Collabo's-4
Impact-5 -
16 on death row
When I get free
Death around the corner
Shorty wanna be a thug
Brenda's got a baby
Dear mama
Those are story telling tracks, classic and iconic tracks.. but y'all giving him a 3 for story tellin? -
Pac's my all time favorite
I got 5 on everything -
Lyrics (5) - Tupac's songs tended to be packed with meaning and messages (good and bad) and he was able to deliver strongly through his words. Very few rappers have been as prolific has him and still manage to deliver strong lyrics in nearly every song.
Really? He rhymed Hennessy with Enemy and Penitentiary on more than just a few songs. -
My issue w/ your rating system is that not all of the categories should carry the same amount of weight. For instance imo a 5 in lyrics and catalog, should carry more weight than an 5 in Language and Callabos.
-
Lyrics-4
Delivery-4
Language-3.5
Storytelling-4.5
Catalog-4
Subject matter-5
Creativity-4
Collabo's-3.5
Impact-5
I think that's 37.5 -
East coast bias. No bueno. Amen.
-
Lyrics - 3
Delivery - 4
Language - 4
Storytelling - 5
Catalog - 4
Subject Matter - 5
Creativity - 3
Collaboration - 3
Impact - 5
Total - 36 -
New York bias is disgusting
Pac should be equal with Big !
Are you joking or what. If I had a NY bias Jay would be higher than Pac too.SolemnSauce wrote: »How U got PAC a 5 for lyrics but a 3.5 for story telling?
How old are u, that's backward as ?
I'm 36 and if you're not joking you either didn't read the category breakdowns or your reading comprehension is low as hell.
The Storytelling category isn't based solely on the lyrical capability of telling a story. It also incorporated the usage of the usage of stories, the variety of subject matter used in the stories, the creativity of the stories, and other criteria. Having a 5 in Lyrics doesn't guarantee anything for Storytelling. Now if you are trying to argue that the lyrical strength in his stories deserves a higher score, that would be a fair argument, but you should make that instead of saying silly ? .My issue w/ your rating system is that not all of the categories should carry the same amount of weight. For instance imo a 5 in lyrics and catalog, should carry more weight than an 5 in Language and Callabos.
I'm inclined to agree, but that would make things overly complicated and the weights would be one more thing that would have to be argued. I might agree with you that a 5 in Lyrics should be more important than a 5 in Language, but everyone might not agree and there would likely be reasonable arguments made for both sides. So really, it's better to just keep them on even ground. It's also not that crazy to do that. After all, to truly be great, you do have to be well rounded.Lyrics (5) - Tupac's songs tended to be packed with meaning and messages (good and bad) and he was able to deliver strongly through his words. Very few rappers have been as prolific has him and still manage to deliver strong lyrics in nearly every song.
Really? He rhymed Hennessy with Enemy and Penitentiary on more than just a few songs.
Rhyming ability applies to Language not Lyrics. The Lyrics category is strictly about the substance and clarity of the lyrics. Now if you want to argue that his Language score should be dropped a little because of his poor rhymes or over use of the same rhymes, you might actually have a good argument there. -
SolemnSauce wrote: »16 on death row
When I get free
Death around the corner
Shorty wanna be a thug
Brenda's got a baby
Dear mama
Those are story telling tracks, classic and iconic tracks.. but y'all giving him a 3 for story tellin?
I gave him a 3.5 and I don't think you really understand what a 3 means. It doesn't mean that Pac doesn't have good stories. It just means that his storytelling and use of storytelling are simply on par with that of other good rappers. Pac has good stories, but his stories are not as well told or intricate as the stories you hear from elite storytellers. And he doesn't actually have as many of them. I think Raekwon is a 4 - 4.5 story teller and he probably has put 5 good stories on a single album, more than once. -
PAC story telling is on a level to where it doesn't even come off as story on first listen. I call that great story telling.
-
Lyrics (5) - Tupac's songs tended to be packed with meaning and messages (good and bad) and he was able to deliver strongly through his words. Very few rappers have been as prolific has him and still manage to deliver strong lyrics in nearly every song.
Really? He rhymed Hennessy with Enemy and Penitentiary on more than just a few songs.
If that's all you got from his lyrics...poor you, smh -
SolemnSauce wrote: »PAC story telling is on a level to where it doesn't even come off as story on first listen. I call that great story telling.
lol What? I'm not sure how not being able to tell that a story is a story is a sign of good storytelling. It seems more like a sign of a weak narrative that can be mistaken for not being a narrative or a listener that isn't savvy enough to pick up on a narrative when he or she hears it. -
if PAC catalog ain't a 5 who's is a 5. He got an argument for 3 straight classics.
-
This thread series needs a panel, not just one guy. You low key played my g on a couple things, and I ain't even ? wit dude like that.
-
This thread series needs a panel, not just one guy. You low key played my g on a couple things, and I ain't even ? wit dude like that.
These threads are supposed to be a panel. lol That's the whole point. I just provide a baseline. If you think I played him somewhere, then make an argument for a higher score in those areas. That's what panels do. -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »This thread series needs a panel, not just one guy. You low key played my g on a couple things, and I ain't even ? wit dude like that.
These threads are supposed to be a panel. lol That's the whole point. I just provide a baseline. If you think I played him somewhere, then make an argument for a higher score in those areas. That's what panels do.
Aight, I respect it.
Catalog and subject matter is a 5. He has a strong argument for 3 straight classics and dude may not have the breadth, but the depth and seriousness of his subject matter is bar none....
He was basically a black panther on the mic.
-
if PAC catalog ain't a 5 who's is a 5. He got an argument for 3 straight classics.
Yeah but im counting all the posthumous stuff myself -
Tupac the GOAT, ? this rating system
-
The Lonious Monk wrote: »This thread series needs a panel, not just one guy. You low key played my g on a couple things, and I ain't even ? wit dude like that.
These threads are supposed to be a panel. lol That's the whole point. I just provide a baseline. If you think I played him somewhere, then make an argument for a higher score in those areas. That's what panels do.
Aight, I respect it.
Catalog and subject matter is a 5. He has a strong argument for 3 straight classics and dude may not have the breadth, but the depth and seriousness of his subject matter is bar none....
He was basically a black panther on the mic.
That is a good point. I've put more of a premium on breadth, but depth is important too. He covered black experience/oppression from pretty much every angle. I don't think any other rapper has ever broken down a subject as much as he has. Plenty of rappers talk about drugs, but few of them every attack the topic to the degree that Pac did with the black matters. I'm inclined to bump it up to 5, but I'm interested to hear what others think? -
How both of y'all type breadth?
-