Rapper Ranking Project: Rapper #3 - Tupac
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Shizlansky wrote: »BIG wish he had the talent Pac had
Other way around.
Big could rap circles around Pac while eating potato chips and drinking a soda. -
This is the reasons man crush
-
The Lonious Monk wrote: »Ok, so here is Troublesome 96.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdX79pwyBII
It was named as an example of his Storytelling. It's a great song, but it's not a good story track. There is a somewhat loose narrative in it, but it's not a clear story. Here are the lyrics.
Compare this song to Somebody's Got to Die. That's a story about revenge just as this seems to be. Biggie walked you through a clear narrative from the beginning (him being informed that a friend was killed) through the middle (him making preparations to get revenge) to the end (him finding and killing the person that committed the offense). It was told masterfully and everything was covered.
Now look at this "story." Whats the beginning, middle, and end? Do all the thoughts and elements of the story flow together clearly. Hell just look at the beginning. In the second stanza, he starts it off with "So revenge, I swore..." Revenge for what? Nothing in the first verse implies that anything in particular happened to him that needed avenging. Read the rest of the stanza. He just said he swore revenge, but the rest of the stanza has nothing to do with that. It's just him puffing himself up as a boss. Look at the fourth stanza. He talks about being shot and the enemy being terrified. So for the first time, he identfies the target, but the rest of that stanza is padding. It doesn't advance a narrative at all. You could probably tell this story in 8 lines because it's that simple. This doesn't even compare to most great stories in rap.Troublesome,
Nineteen muthaf***in' 96'
West side, let it be known, n****
Boss of all bosses, Makaveli
Menacin' methods label me a lethal weapon
Making n****s die, witnessin' breathless imperfections
Can you picture my specific plan to be the man in this wicked land
Under handed hits are planned, scams are plotted over grams of rock
Undercover agents die by the random shots, we all die in the end
So revenge, I swore, I was all about my ends, f*** friends and foes
Me, a born leader, never leave the block without my, my heata
Got me a dog, named him Mobb B**** N**** Eata
What could they do to me that little brat? S*** them, n****s
That shot me and still terrified I'll get their a**, how can I show you
How I feel inside? We outlawz motherf***as, can't ? my pride
N****s, talk a lot of s*** but that's after I'm gone 'cause they fear me
In physical form, let it be known, I'm troublesome
All ya n****s die, put it down to the fullest
Spittin' rhymes and bullets, troublesome, I know what time it is
Call the punk police please, they can't stop us n****s run the streets
Troublesome, gutter ways my mentality is ghetto
We're guerrillas in this criminal war, we all rebels
Death before dishonor bet on bomb on them first n****s
We came for murder, pullin' up in a hearse
Westside was the war cry bustin' all freely screaming f***
All y'all n****s in Swahili, pistol packin' fresh out of jail
I ain't goin' back, release me to care of my heartless strap
Say my name three times like candy man, bet I roll on your a**
Like an avalanche, a soul survivor, learned to get high
And pull drive bys, murder my foes, can't control my nine
Hearin' thoughts of my enemies pleadin' please
Busta a** motherf***as tried to flee, picture me lettin'
This chump survive, redin' up on his a** when I'm doped
He die, 'cause I'm troublesome
All ya n****s, die young, strapped and I don't give a f***
I'm hopeless, I live a thug life loosin' my focus, baby
I'm troublesome, bad boy killa, there is no one realla
What you saw was the rough, rugged and raw, outlaw
Murder, murder my mind states s*** ain't change
Since my last rhyme, the crime rate ain't decline
N****s bustin' shots like they lost their mind
Like twenty-five to life never crossed their mind
Tell me young n**** never learned a thang
Dead at thirteen 'cause he yearned to bang
Sent a lot of flowers but how can I cry
Tried to warn the little n****, either stop or die
Mercy is for the weak when I speak, I scream
Afraid to sleep I'm havin' crazy dreams
Vivid pictures of my enemies and family times
? to forgive me 'cause it's wrong but I plan to die
You can take me to heaven and understand I was a G
Did the best I could, raised in insanity or send me to hell
'Cause I ain't beggin' for my life, ain't nothing worse
Than this cursed a** hopeless life, I'm troublesome
All ya n****s die in your wildest dreams
You couldn't picture a n**** like me, I'm troublesome
I agree with your story telling rating. Big, Nas, Raekwon, Ghostface and even Eminem have all done a much better job at telling detailed stories. -
Shizlansky wrote: »BIG wish he had the talent Pac had
Other way around.
Big could rap circles around Pac while eating potato chips and drinking a soda.
Rap is so much more than witty lyrics.
Pac had everything when it comes to rap -
Lyrics should be 4 and story telling 5 or at least 4.5
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@Sion Got an issue with objectivity. If Pac is not the best at storytelling, he can not be 5. That's what this series is about. He has no stories as detailed or clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power in his whole catalog. That's an automatic no 5. You can find other rappers who tell more detailed stories than Pac that aren't as clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power, so they would fall in the 4.0-4.5 range. 3.5 isn't an outlandish score by any means.
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Lyrics-3
Delivery-3
Language-3
Storytelling-3
Catalog-3.5
Subject matter-5
Creativity-4
Collabo's-3
Impact-5
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mosincredible wrote: »@Sion Got an issue with objectivity. If Pac is not the best at storytelling, he can not be 5. That's what this series is about. He has no stories as detailed or clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power in his whole catalog. That's an automatic no 5. You can find other rappers who tell more detailed stories than Pac that aren't as clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power, so they would fall in the 4.0-4.5 range. 3.5 isn't an outlandish score by any means.
Him receiving a 5 doesn't make him the best it just means he's exhibited an excellent rating from his own capacity. By your logic, Scarface is the greatest storyteller period over NaS, Big Boi and a dozen others and therefore no one can be a 5 if they're not better than Scarface even if they are. Nor can they match him.
And yes Pac does have stories as deep you can't be this foolish - Against All Odds is based on actual events that's so deep it's intertwined forever with "who killed 2Pac" theories and more. That song helped carry an entire theory that Pac would rise from the dead to get revenge on his enemies. As did Hail Mary and countless others. Pac's songs were connected. 3.5 is outlandish AF imo because it's undermining the impact those songs had on real life circumstances and the legend of Tupac.
? like this is why I hate the Reason sometimes. On the IC though shall not go against the "Nation of NaSlam", Lupe Fiasco is second the greatest rapper of all time, we cannot say Drake has ANY hit songs, everyone ? dimes and lives in Trump tower with an orange juice maker ice cooler installed on the TV, J.Cole has 8 classics and southern Hip-hop is to be denounced SMMFH. FOH fam, let's keep it honest and keep the ? out.... You can give Pac lower ratings in other places but storytelling isn't one of them. Being objective, how he can be a 4 lyrically but a 3 for storytelling is mad disrespeckful SMMFH. Brenda's Got A Baby almost got black listed from radio, Baby Don't Cry, Keep Ya Head Up, Troublesome 96, Teardrops and Closed Caskets, Shorty Wanna Be A Thug, My Block, Mama's Just A Little Girl, All Eyez On Me, Letter To My Unborn Child, Better Dayz, Life Goes On. ? Tupac was writing stories about him still living having us thinking he was still alive for 7 straight years SMMFH.
Scarface's stories aren't as clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power. They're just very good. I wouldn't give him the 5 either. If you start handing out 5s with "his own capacity" attached to it, you could start making arguments for a lot of 5s.
And you talking about the wrong one when you mentioning objectivity because I actually agree with a lot of your rant paragraph. The IC act like because Drake had someone write some of his worst music that he never was a good writer at all. All of his best verses are his "[*] o'clock in [location]" series and those are definitely all penned by him. I agree J Cole isn't great, FHD was his best album but still not as good as any of Kendrick's. And the south doesn't get enough credit.
You can make a legitimate argument for Pac to be a 4 or a 4.5 storyteller but not a 5 because the cleverness of a story counts. I understand there's a lot of posters in the Reason that denounce cleverness or witty bars saying it doesn't matter. If your story is concise, detailed and clever all at once, you are the better storyteller. Subject matter of what you're actually saying is a different category. -
One time I seen ? in The Reason say Lupe Fiasco was better than Pac SMMFH. Like WTF SMMFH.
No you didnt. -
Him receiving a 5 doesn't make him the best it just means he's exhibited an excellent rating from his own capacity. By your logic, Scarface is the greatest storyteller period over NaS, Big Boi and a dozen others and therefore no one can be a 5 if they're not better than Scarface even if they are. Nor can they match him.
And yes Pac does have stories as deep you can't be this foolish - Against All Odds is based on actual events that's so deep it's intertwined forever with "who killed 2Pac" theories and more. That song helped carry an entire theory that Pac would rise from the dead to get revenge on his enemies. As did Hail Mary and countless others. Pac's songs were connected. 3.5 is outlandish AF imo because it's undermining the impact those songs had on real life circumstances and the legend of Tupac.
? like this is why I hate the Reason sometimes. On the IC though shall not go against the "Nation of NaSlam", Lupe Fiasco is second the greatest rapper of all time, we cannot say Drake has ANY hit songs, everyone ? dimes and lives in Trump tower with an orange juice maker ice cooler installed on the TV, J.Cole has 8 classics and southern Hip-hop is to be denounced SMMFH. FOH fam, let's keep it honest and keep the ? out.... You can give Pac lower ratings in other places but storytelling isn't one of them. Being objective, how he can be a 4 lyrically but a 3 for storytelling is mad disrespeckful SMMFH. Brenda's Got A Baby almost got black listed from radio, Baby Don't Cry, Keep Ya Head Up, Troublesome 96, Teardrops and Closed Caskets, Shorty Wanna Be A Thug, My Block, Mama's Just A Little Girl, All Eyez On Me, Letter To My Unborn Child, Better Dayz, Life Goes On. ? Tupac was writing stories about him still living having us thinking he was still alive for 7 straight years SMMFH.
Maybe this is the first you've seen, but I've already explained what the scores me. A 5 means that Pac would be among the very best storytellers ever. He isn't. And your comments show you don't even understand the categories. I already explained this. The Lyrics category is about rapper's ability to develop a message or idea or speak on a concept through his or her raps and convey it clearly. The Storytelling category is about a rappers ability to create a coherent narrative and deliver it through rap. It also takes into account the rapper's body of work for stories, the creativity of the stories, the range of subject matter addressed in the stories, and other things. You can be a strong lyricist but not tell a lot of stories or not cover many areas with your stories or not be creative with your stories. That's how you get a 5 in Lyrics but a 3 in Storytelling.
The key with the Storytelling category is the narrative though. Half the songs you name have little to no narrative in them. Let's look at another one of your examples: Keep Ya Head Up[Verse 1]
Some say the blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice
I say the darker the flesh, then the deeper the roots
I give a holla to my sisters on welfare
2Pac cares if don't nobody else care
And I know they like to beat you down a lot
When you come around the block, brothers clown a lot
But please don't cry, dry your eyes, never let up
Forgive, but don't forget, girl, keep ya head up
And when he tells you you ain't nothin', don't believe him
And if he can't learn to love you, you should leave him
‘Cause, sister, you don't need him
And I ain't tryin' to gas you up, I just call 'em how I see 'em
You know what makes me unhappy?
When brothers make babies
And leave a young mother to be a pappy
And since we all came from a woman
Got our name from a woman and our game from a woman
I wonder why we take from our women
Why we ? our women — do we hate our women?
I think it's time to ? for our women
Time to heal our women, be real to our women
And if we don't we'll have a race of babies
That will hate the ladies that make the babies
And since a man can't make one
He has no right to tell a woman when and where to create one
So will the real men get up?
I know you're fed up, ladies, but keep ya head up
[Verse 2]
Ayo, I remember Marvin Gaye used to sing to me
He had me feelin' like black was the thing to be
And suddenly the ghetto didn't seem so tough
And though we had it rough, we always had enough
I huffed and puffed about my curfew and broke the rules
Ran with a local crew and had a smoke or two
And I realize Mama really paid the price
She nearly gave her life to raise me right
And all I had to give her was my pipe dream
Of how I'd rock the mic and make it to the bright screen
I'm tryin' to make a dollar out of fifteen cents
It's hard to be legit and still pay the rent
And in the end it seems I'm headin' for the pen
I try to find my friends, but they're blowin' in the wind
Last night my buddy lost his whole family
It's gonna take the man in me to conquer this insanity
It seems the rain'll never let up
I try to keep my head up and still keep from gettin' wet up
You know, it's funny, when it rains it pours
They got money for wars but can't feed the poor
Say there ain't no hope for the youth
And the truth is it ain't no hope for the future
And then they wonder why we crazy
I blame my mother for turnin' my brother into a ? baby
We ain't meant to survive, ‘cause it's a set-up
And even though you're fed up, huh, you got to keep ya head up
[Verse 3]
And uh, to all the ladies havin' babies on they own
I know it's kinda rough and you're feelin' all alone
Daddy's long gone and he left you by your lonesome
Thank the Lord for my kids even if nobody else want 'em
‘Cause I think we can make it; in fact, I'm sure
And if you fall, stand tall and come back for more
‘Cause ain't nothin' worse than when your son
Wants to know why his daddy don't love him no mo'
You can't complain you was dealt this
Hell of a hand without a man, feelin' helpless
Because there's too many things for you to deal with
Dyin' inside, but outside you're lookin' fearless
While tears is rollin' down your cheeks
You steady hopin' things don't fall down this week
‘Cause if it did, you couldn't take it
And don't blame me — I was given this world, I didn't make it
And now my son's gettin' older and older
And colder from havin' the world on his shoulders
While the rich kids is drivin' Benz
I'm still tryin' to hold on to survivin' friends
And it's crazy, it seems it'll never let up
But please, you got to keep ya head up
What's the story? Summarize the narrative for us since you think this is a great story. You're going to have a hard time doing that because this isn't a story. It's more like an inspirational speech delivered through lyrics and it's superb. That's why I gave him a 5 in lyrics. But there is three verses here and not even one of these verses is dedicated to delivering a clear narrative. The closest he comes is when he tells about his early life and his mother's struggles, but again, the purpose of that is not to deliver a story, it's to inspire people not to give up. You seem to be mixing up telling a story with lacing a message with storytelling elements to better deliver a point.
I'm not against giving him a higher score, but your reasoning seems extremely biased and you are really stretching things in order for him to be pushed. I'd ask you what you think was a fair score for him, but you gave him a 5 in everything, so clearly you're not being objective. -
mosincredible wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »Ok, so here is Troublesome 96.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdX79pwyBII
It was named as an example of his Storytelling. It's a great song, but it's not a good story track. There is a somewhat loose narrative in it, but it's not a clear story. Here are the lyrics.
Compare this song to Somebody's Got to Die. That's a story about revenge just as this seems to be. Biggie walked you through a clear narrative from the beginning (him being informed that a friend was killed) through the middle (him making preparations to get revenge) to the end (him finding and killing the person that committed the offense). It was told masterfully and everything was covered.
Now look at this "story." Whats the beginning, middle, and end? Do all the thoughts and elements of the story flow together clearly. Hell just look at the beginning. In the second stanza, he starts it off with "So revenge, I swore..." Revenge for what? Nothing in the first verse implies that anything in particular happened to him that needed avenging. Read the rest of the stanza. He just said he swore revenge, but the rest of the stanza has nothing to do with that. It's just him puffing himself up as a boss. Look at the fourth stanza. He talks about being shot and the enemy being terrified. So for the first time, he identfies the target, but the rest of that stanza is padding. It doesn't advance a narrative at all. You could probably tell this story in 8 lines because it's that simple. This doesn't even compare to most great stories in rap.Troublesome,
Nineteen muthaf***in' 96'
West side, let it be known, n****
Boss of all bosses, Makaveli
Menacin' methods label me a lethal weapon
Making n****s die, witnessin' breathless imperfections
Can you picture my specific plan to be the man in this wicked land
Under handed hits are planned, scams are plotted over grams of rock
Undercover agents die by the random shots, we all die in the end
So revenge, I swore, I was all about my ends, f*** friends and foes
Me, a born leader, never leave the block without my, my heata
Got me a dog, named him Mobb B**** N**** Eata
What could they do to me that little brat? S*** them, n****s
That shot me and still terrified I'll get their a**, how can I show you
How I feel inside? We outlawz motherf***as, can't ? my pride
N****s, talk a lot of s*** but that's after I'm gone 'cause they fear me
In physical form, let it be known, I'm troublesome
All ya n****s die, put it down to the fullest
Spittin' rhymes and bullets, troublesome, I know what time it is
Call the punk police please, they can't stop us n****s run the streets
Troublesome, gutter ways my mentality is ghetto
We're guerrillas in this criminal war, we all rebels
Death before dishonor bet on bomb on them first n****s
We came for murder, pullin' up in a hearse
Westside was the war cry bustin' all freely screaming f***
All y'all n****s in Swahili, pistol packin' fresh out of jail
I ain't goin' back, release me to care of my heartless strap
Say my name three times like candy man, bet I roll on your a**
Like an avalanche, a soul survivor, learned to get high
And pull drive bys, murder my foes, can't control my nine
Hearin' thoughts of my enemies pleadin' please
Busta a** motherf***as tried to flee, picture me lettin'
This chump survive, redin' up on his a** when I'm doped
He die, 'cause I'm troublesome
All ya n****s, die young, strapped and I don't give a f***
I'm hopeless, I live a thug life loosin' my focus, baby
I'm troublesome, bad boy killa, there is no one realla
What you saw was the rough, rugged and raw, outlaw
Murder, murder my mind states s*** ain't change
Since my last rhyme, the crime rate ain't decline
N****s bustin' shots like they lost their mind
Like twenty-five to life never crossed their mind
Tell me young n**** never learned a thang
Dead at thirteen 'cause he yearned to bang
Sent a lot of flowers but how can I cry
Tried to warn the little n****, either stop or die
Mercy is for the weak when I speak, I scream
Afraid to sleep I'm havin' crazy dreams
Vivid pictures of my enemies and family times
? to forgive me 'cause it's wrong but I plan to die
You can take me to heaven and understand I was a G
Did the best I could, raised in insanity or send me to hell
'Cause I ain't beggin' for my life, ain't nothing worse
Than this cursed a** hopeless life, I'm troublesome
All ya n****s die in your wildest dreams
You couldn't picture a n**** like me, I'm troublesome
I agree with your story telling rating. Big, Nas, Raekwon, Ghostface and even Eminem have all done a much better job at telling detailed stories.
Raekwon's my dude but I wouldn't call him a GOAT storyteller. If you go back and listen to OB4CL he didn't finish any of his stories. He'll tell the beginning of a story and then change topics, and if you're lucky he'll go back to the story by the end of the song. -
mosincredible wrote: »mosincredible wrote: »@Sion Got an issue with objectivity. If Pac is not the best at storytelling, he can not be 5. That's what this series is about. He has no stories as detailed or clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power in his whole catalog. That's an automatic no 5. You can find other rappers who tell more detailed stories than Pac that aren't as clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power, so they would fall in the 4.0-4.5 range. 3.5 isn't an outlandish score by any means.
Him receiving a 5 doesn't make him the best it just means he's exhibited an excellent rating from his own capacity. By your logic, Scarface is the greatest storyteller period over NaS, Big Boi and a dozen others and therefore no one can be a 5 if they're not better than Scarface even if they are. Nor can they match him.
And yes Pac does have stories as deep you can't be this foolish - Against All Odds is based on actual events that's so deep it's intertwined forever with "who killed 2Pac" theories and more. That song helped carry an entire theory that Pac would rise from the dead to get revenge on his enemies. As did Hail Mary and countless others. Pac's songs were connected. 3.5 is outlandish AF imo because it's undermining the impact those songs had on real life circumstances and the legend of Tupac.
? like this is why I hate the Reason sometimes. On the IC though shall not go against the "Nation of NaSlam", Lupe Fiasco is second the greatest rapper of all time, we cannot say Drake has ANY hit songs, everyone ? dimes and lives in Trump tower with an orange juice maker ice cooler installed on the TV, J.Cole has 8 classics and southern Hip-hop is to be denounced SMMFH. FOH fam, let's keep it honest and keep the ? out.... You can give Pac lower ratings in other places but storytelling isn't one of them. Being objective, how he can be a 4 lyrically but a 3 for storytelling is mad disrespeckful SMMFH. Brenda's Got A Baby almost got black listed from radio, Baby Don't Cry, Keep Ya Head Up, Troublesome 96, Teardrops and Closed Caskets, Shorty Wanna Be A Thug, My Block, Mama's Just A Little Girl, All Eyez On Me, Letter To My Unborn Child, Better Dayz, Life Goes On. ? Tupac was writing stories about him still living having us thinking he was still alive for 7 straight years SMMFH.
Scarface's stories aren't as clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power. They're just very good. I wouldn't give him the 5 either. If you start handing out 5s with "his own capacity" attached to it, you could start making arguments for a lot of 5s.
And you talking about the wrong one when you mentioning objectivity because I actually agree with a lot of your rant paragraph. The IC act like because Drake had someone write some of his worst music that he never was a good writer at all. All of his best verses are his "[*] o'clock in [location]" series and those are definitely all penned by him. I agree J Cole isn't great, FHD was his best album but still not as good as any of Kendrick's. And the south doesn't get enough credit.
You can make a legitimate argument for Pac to be a 4 or a 4.5 storyteller but not a 5 because the cleverness of a story counts. I understand there's a lot of posters in the Reason that denounce cleverness or witty bars saying it doesn't matter. If your story is concise, detailed and clever all at once, you are the better storyteller. Subject matter of what you're actually saying is a different category.
Thank you. @Sion if you disagree with a 3, fine. Make a good argument. Pick a story or two, show use how they demonstrate the standards mentioned for good storytelling and then suggest a reasonable score. It's not that difficult. Stop acting like everyone else is being anti-Pac because we're not cosigning your belief that he deserves 5 in everything. -
mosincredible wrote: »The Lonious Monk wrote: »Ok, so here is Troublesome 96.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdX79pwyBII
It was named as an example of his Storytelling. It's a great song, but it's not a good story track. There is a somewhat loose narrative in it, but it's not a clear story. Here are the lyrics.
Compare this song to Somebody's Got to Die. That's a story about revenge just as this seems to be. Biggie walked you through a clear narrative from the beginning (him being informed that a friend was killed) through the middle (him making preparations to get revenge) to the end (him finding and killing the person that committed the offense). It was told masterfully and everything was covered.
Now look at this "story." Whats the beginning, middle, and end? Do all the thoughts and elements of the story flow together clearly. Hell just look at the beginning. In the second stanza, he starts it off with "So revenge, I swore..." Revenge for what? Nothing in the first verse implies that anything in particular happened to him that needed avenging. Read the rest of the stanza. He just said he swore revenge, but the rest of the stanza has nothing to do with that. It's just him puffing himself up as a boss. Look at the fourth stanza. He talks about being shot and the enemy being terrified. So for the first time, he identfies the target, but the rest of that stanza is padding. It doesn't advance a narrative at all. You could probably tell this story in 8 lines because it's that simple. This doesn't even compare to most great stories in rap.Troublesome,
Nineteen muthaf***in' 96'
West side, let it be known, n****
Boss of all bosses, Makaveli
Menacin' methods label me a lethal weapon
Making n****s die, witnessin' breathless imperfections
Can you picture my specific plan to be the man in this wicked land
Under handed hits are planned, scams are plotted over grams of rock
Undercover agents die by the random shots, we all die in the end
So revenge, I swore, I was all about my ends, f*** friends and foes
Me, a born leader, never leave the block without my, my heata
Got me a dog, named him Mobb B**** N**** Eata
What could they do to me that little brat? S*** them, n****s
That shot me and still terrified I'll get their a**, how can I show you
How I feel inside? We outlawz motherf***as, can't ? my pride
N****s, talk a lot of s*** but that's after I'm gone 'cause they fear me
In physical form, let it be known, I'm troublesome
All ya n****s die, put it down to the fullest
Spittin' rhymes and bullets, troublesome, I know what time it is
Call the punk police please, they can't stop us n****s run the streets
Troublesome, gutter ways my mentality is ghetto
We're guerrillas in this criminal war, we all rebels
Death before dishonor bet on bomb on them first n****s
We came for murder, pullin' up in a hearse
Westside was the war cry bustin' all freely screaming f***
All y'all n****s in Swahili, pistol packin' fresh out of jail
I ain't goin' back, release me to care of my heartless strap
Say my name three times like candy man, bet I roll on your a**
Like an avalanche, a soul survivor, learned to get high
And pull drive bys, murder my foes, can't control my nine
Hearin' thoughts of my enemies pleadin' please
Busta a** motherf***as tried to flee, picture me lettin'
This chump survive, redin' up on his a** when I'm doped
He die, 'cause I'm troublesome
All ya n****s, die young, strapped and I don't give a f***
I'm hopeless, I live a thug life loosin' my focus, baby
I'm troublesome, bad boy killa, there is no one realla
What you saw was the rough, rugged and raw, outlaw
Murder, murder my mind states s*** ain't change
Since my last rhyme, the crime rate ain't decline
N****s bustin' shots like they lost their mind
Like twenty-five to life never crossed their mind
Tell me young n**** never learned a thang
Dead at thirteen 'cause he yearned to bang
Sent a lot of flowers but how can I cry
Tried to warn the little n****, either stop or die
Mercy is for the weak when I speak, I scream
Afraid to sleep I'm havin' crazy dreams
Vivid pictures of my enemies and family times
? to forgive me 'cause it's wrong but I plan to die
You can take me to heaven and understand I was a G
Did the best I could, raised in insanity or send me to hell
'Cause I ain't beggin' for my life, ain't nothing worse
Than this cursed a** hopeless life, I'm troublesome
All ya n****s die in your wildest dreams
You couldn't picture a n**** like me, I'm troublesome
I agree with your story telling rating. Big, Nas, Raekwon, Ghostface and even Eminem have all done a much better job at telling detailed stories.
Raekwon's my dude but I wouldn't call him a GOAT storyteller. If you go back and listen to OB4CL he didn't finish any of his stories. He'll tell the beginning of a story and then change topics, and if you're lucky he'll go back to the story by the end of the song.
I agree that Rae isn't a 5, but he does do a better job of delivering clear and detailed stories than Pac. That's not to say that all Rae's stories are better than all of Pac's, but I do think Rae's body of work blows Pac's away. I would say Pac's method of storytelling is more consistent than Rae's though. -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »mosincredible wrote: »mosincredible wrote: »@Sion Got an issue with objectivity. If Pac is not the best at storytelling, he can not be 5. That's what this series is about. He has no stories as detailed or clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power in his whole catalog. That's an automatic no 5. You can find other rappers who tell more detailed stories than Pac that aren't as clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power, so they would fall in the 4.0-4.5 range. 3.5 isn't an outlandish score by any means.
Him receiving a 5 doesn't make him the best it just means he's exhibited an excellent rating from his own capacity. By your logic, Scarface is the greatest storyteller period over NaS, Big Boi and a dozen others and therefore no one can be a 5 if they're not better than Scarface even if they are. Nor can they match him.
And yes Pac does have stories as deep you can't be this foolish - Against All Odds is based on actual events that's so deep it's intertwined forever with "who killed 2Pac" theories and more. That song helped carry an entire theory that Pac would rise from the dead to get revenge on his enemies. As did Hail Mary and countless others. Pac's songs were connected. 3.5 is outlandish AF imo because it's undermining the impact those songs had on real life circumstances and the legend of Tupac.
? like this is why I hate the Reason sometimes. On the IC though shall not go against the "Nation of NaSlam", Lupe Fiasco is second the greatest rapper of all time, we cannot say Drake has ANY hit songs, everyone ? dimes and lives in Trump tower with an orange juice maker ice cooler installed on the TV, J.Cole has 8 classics and southern Hip-hop is to be denounced SMMFH. FOH fam, let's keep it honest and keep the ? out.... You can give Pac lower ratings in other places but storytelling isn't one of them. Being objective, how he can be a 4 lyrically but a 3 for storytelling is mad disrespeckful SMMFH. Brenda's Got A Baby almost got black listed from radio, Baby Don't Cry, Keep Ya Head Up, Troublesome 96, Teardrops and Closed Caskets, Shorty Wanna Be A Thug, My Block, Mama's Just A Little Girl, All Eyez On Me, Letter To My Unborn Child, Better Dayz, Life Goes On. ? Tupac was writing stories about him still living having us thinking he was still alive for 7 straight years SMMFH.
Scarface's stories aren't as clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power. They're just very good. I wouldn't give him the 5 either. If you start handing out 5s with "his own capacity" attached to it, you could start making arguments for a lot of 5s.
And you talking about the wrong one when you mentioning objectivity because I actually agree with a lot of your rant paragraph. The IC act like because Drake had someone write some of his worst music that he never was a good writer at all. All of his best verses are his "[*] o'clock in [location]" series and those are definitely all penned by him. I agree J Cole isn't great, FHD was his best album but still not as good as any of Kendrick's. And the south doesn't get enough credit.
You can make a legitimate argument for Pac to be a 4 or a 4.5 storyteller but not a 5 because the cleverness of a story counts. I understand there's a lot of posters in the Reason that denounce cleverness or witty bars saying it doesn't matter. If your story is concise, detailed and clever all at once, you are the better storyteller. Subject matter of what you're actually saying is a different category.
Thank you. @Sion if you disagree with a 3, fine. Make a good argument. Pick a story or two, show use how they demonstrate the standards mentioned for good storytelling and then suggest a reasonable score. It's not that difficult. Stop acting like everyone else is being anti-Pac because we're not cosigning your belief that he deserves 5 in everything.
I just did that SMMFH LOOLOLOLOL
This is based on your own personal view (or dislike) of Pac. That being said I see there's no respect or real acknowledgement in opinions voiced. I'm out.
Only in The Reason is Pac considered an "average rapper" SMMFH
lol WTF. Pac's score is higher than Jay-Z and just .5 below Biggie. We can do 100 more of these topics and he'll probably wind up in the top 5 at worst. How the hell does that make him an "average rapper." I have more Pac albums than Jay and Big albums combined, but somehow dislike him because I'm just not blindly giving him the best score.
This is why I can't just average scores and act like that's some kind of objective standard because there are people that will come in here and won't even try to be objective. @Sion is clearly biased and he's not even trying to hide it. He's actually getting mad at other people because they are calling him out on his bias. If we just average the scores given we'll just have a bunch of biased scores because even if some people come in and objectively score, the people who aren't even trying to be objective will skew the scores. -
The Lonious Monk wrote: »mosincredible wrote: »mosincredible wrote: »@Sion Got an issue with objectivity. If Pac is not the best at storytelling, he can not be 5. That's what this series is about. He has no stories as detailed or clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power in his whole catalog. That's an automatic no 5. You can find other rappers who tell more detailed stories than Pac that aren't as clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power, so they would fall in the 4.0-4.5 range. 3.5 isn't an outlandish score by any means.
Him receiving a 5 doesn't make him the best it just means he's exhibited an excellent rating from his own capacity. By your logic, Scarface is the greatest storyteller period over NaS, Big Boi and a dozen others and therefore no one can be a 5 if they're not better than Scarface even if they are. Nor can they match him.
And yes Pac does have stories as deep you can't be this foolish - Against All Odds is based on actual events that's so deep it's intertwined forever with "who killed 2Pac" theories and more. That song helped carry an entire theory that Pac would rise from the dead to get revenge on his enemies. As did Hail Mary and countless others. Pac's songs were connected. 3.5 is outlandish AF imo because it's undermining the impact those songs had on real life circumstances and the legend of Tupac.
? like this is why I hate the Reason sometimes. On the IC though shall not go against the "Nation of NaSlam", Lupe Fiasco is second the greatest rapper of all time, we cannot say Drake has ANY hit songs, everyone ? dimes and lives in Trump tower with an orange juice maker ice cooler installed on the TV, J.Cole has 8 classics and southern Hip-hop is to be denounced SMMFH. FOH fam, let's keep it honest and keep the ? out.... You can give Pac lower ratings in other places but storytelling isn't one of them. Being objective, how he can be a 4 lyrically but a 3 for storytelling is mad disrespeckful SMMFH. Brenda's Got A Baby almost got black listed from radio, Baby Don't Cry, Keep Ya Head Up, Troublesome 96, Teardrops and Closed Caskets, Shorty Wanna Be A Thug, My Block, Mama's Just A Little Girl, All Eyez On Me, Letter To My Unborn Child, Better Dayz, Life Goes On. ? Tupac was writing stories about him still living having us thinking he was still alive for 7 straight years SMMFH.
Scarface's stories aren't as clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power. They're just very good. I wouldn't give him the 5 either. If you start handing out 5s with "his own capacity" attached to it, you could start making arguments for a lot of 5s.
And you talking about the wrong one when you mentioning objectivity because I actually agree with a lot of your rant paragraph. The IC act like because Drake had someone write some of his worst music that he never was a good writer at all. All of his best verses are his "[*] o'clock in [location]" series and those are definitely all penned by him. I agree J Cole isn't great, FHD was his best album but still not as good as any of Kendrick's. And the south doesn't get enough credit.
You can make a legitimate argument for Pac to be a 4 or a 4.5 storyteller but not a 5 because the cleverness of a story counts. I understand there's a lot of posters in the Reason that denounce cleverness or witty bars saying it doesn't matter. If your story is concise, detailed and clever all at once, you are the better storyteller. Subject matter of what you're actually saying is a different category.
Thank you. @Sion if you disagree with a 3, fine. Make a good argument. Pick a story or two, show use how they demonstrate the standards mentioned for good storytelling and then suggest a reasonable score. It's not that difficult. Stop acting like everyone else is being anti-Pac because we're not cosigning your belief that he deserves 5 in everything.
I just did that SMMFH LOOLOLOLOL
This is based on your own personal view (or dislike) of Pac. That being said I see there's no respect or real acknowledgement in opinions voiced. I'm out.
Only in The Reason is Pac considered an "average rapper" SMMFH
He scored a Pac higher than Jay and only .5 less than BIG but he thinks he's average? -
So @Sion's stance is basically void, but I don't want to throw out the contention. Does Pac's Storytelling need to be raised, and if so, to what? I'd still say he's a 3. He has some well told stories, but none of them are particularly creative or detailed. However, if you guys think he has a strong body of work as far as storytelling goes, maybe it can be raised .5 or something like that. What do you think?
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I don't think storytelling was Pac's strong suit. Nor do I think Lyrics is his strong suit.
Pac excelled at delivery. Thats where he gets a 5 -
I don't think storytelling was Pac's strong suit. Nor do I think Lyrics is his strong suit.
Pac excelled at delivery. Thats where he gets a 5
I think Pac has very strong lyrics. Does anyone else think I rated him too high there? Ironically, the Pac dickriders keep attacking my Lyrics score because the Storytelling score isn't as high as they want. Seems like they are roundabout calling his Lyrics into question too. -
All 5s
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Scarface>Tupac and Biggie
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Lyrics - 5
Delivery - 5
Language - 3
Storytelling - 4
Catalog - 5
Subject Matter - 5
Creativity - 3
Collaboration - 5
Impact - 5
Total - 40 -
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Great thread series, terrible execution. It really should be take everyones score and average it out. Minus the all 5 crowd and ? .
Thank you...... He don't seem to understand that -
We voting you out your own thread.
Let @sion or someone make these threads from now. Take everyones total scores and get an average, and lets sticky the final results of everyone. -
We voting you out your own thread.
Let @sion or someone make these threads from now. Take everyones total scores and get an average, and lets sticky the final results of everyone.
I been tryna tell him having one person decide what scores he wants to change and how much he wants to change them ain't the best way but he thinks since he takes ppl opinion into consideration that means it's coo no it's still just your opinion Jay BIG and now Pac scores all boil down to one person decision and instead of the whole thread being about everybody giving their own scores and coming up with the best rating taking all scores into account it turns into everybody tryna convince one person to change a score....it's sum dictator ? but he don't seem to understand
